|  Author | Topic: ASMI POSITION STATEMENT for youth pitchers (Read 3,552 times) |
Glenn Fleisig, Ph.D.
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soxcrates999
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|  | Re: ASMI POSITION STATEMENT for youth pitchers
« Reply #1 on Aug 13, 2009, 10:41am » | |
Aug 13, 2009, 10:37am, Glenn Fleisig, Ph.D. wrote:
Excellent, thanks Doc. All very good points especially the catcher pitcher recommendations. At young ages this occurs frequently and can be a tremendous component of overuse without actually knowing it.
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thaselden
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| | Re: ASMI POSITION STATEMENT for youth pitchers
« Reply #2 on Aug 13, 2009, 1:23pm » | |
Limits? What limits? If you're going to recommend limits they should be in THIS DOCUMENT, not a separate document that people have to hunt for. That's assuming you're talking about the limits that ASMI originally suggested to USA Baseball several years ago, rather than the hodgepodge of "limits" suggested by the various youth organizations. Heck, as you know, many organizations still have NO limits. Surely you're not overlooking the kids that play in these organizations?
And if you're talking about ASMI's proposed limits they should be your ORIGINAL limits, not the watered down version you agreed to in order to appease Little League.
For those of you who haven't seen it, there was an excellent article in the New York Times recently. Among other things, it suggests that Little League got ASMI to go along with higher pitch count limits than they really wanted to. See http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/09/magazi....=3&ref=magazine
This Position Statement is fine, as far as it goes. But it does not go nearly far enough. If you're going to issue a Position Statement it should be bold and comprehensive. This one comes off as a bit timid and half-hearted. You can do better.
Aug 13, 2009, 10:42am, Glenn Fleisig, Ph.D. wrote:Position Statement for Youth Baseball Pitchers
August 2009
3. Follow limits for pitch counts and days rest.
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daque
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| | Re: ASMI POSITION STATEMENT for youth pitchers
« Reply #3 on Aug 13, 2009, 1:27pm » | |
Overall, a great start. As always, I shall comment on the areas that I feel are iffy and those areas I do not comment on I find acceptable.
I too feel that overuse is the main culprit and number two on my list is fatigue with number three being technique problems. As you know I have severe reservations with the slurve and I guess a case could be made that this is just a poor technique curve. But the slurve is a pitch used by adults and so perhaps calling it a miscreant curve is an over statement. There are other factors but they pale in significance compared to these three.
If a player is taken out of the pitching position for fatigue, if I read the statement correctly, you are advising removing him from the game. I do not believe this will be complied with or acceptable to the majority of coaches since it most likely removes a very effective batter from the game. The few additional throws he will make at any position other than catcher are insignificant.
In item number two I would substitute overhand for overhead and advise the 4 month layoff from baseball knowing it is best. Advise what is best, not what will be accepted.
In item number five, 1), I would prefer basic throwing and foot work mechanics. Proper foot work is critical to proper throwing terchnique.
In number nine, I would add afer the word sports, "as well as decrease potentially harmful reptetive motions associated with a single sport"
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daque
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| | Re: ASMI POSITION STATEMENT for youth pitchers
« Reply #4 on Aug 13, 2009, 1:38pm » | |
"And if you're talking about ASMI's proposed limits they should be your ORIGINAL limits, not the watered down version you agreed to in order to appease Little League."
A bit unfair.
Little League is not without experience in this matter. ASMI made a suggestion as to the numbers based upon their research. They couldn't really recommend a number and then add, "more or less." The numbers are not cast in stone. They are a work in progress and I have no doubt that they will modified in time. To make some concessions in an estimate does not rise to the level of appeasement. Getting LL to make concessions on work not done by them is a major step in itself.
To be dogmatic takes more clout than ASMI has at the moment. The camel has succeeded in getting it's nose under the tent.
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thaselden
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| | Re: ASMI POSITION STATEMENT for youth pitchers
« Reply #5 on Aug 13, 2009, 1:46pm » | |
A couple of additional thoughts.
The statement should be amended to add that once a player is removed as a pitcher he should not be allowed to return to the mound during that game, or a subsequent game on the same day.
It should also contain recommendations regarding days of rest between appearances.
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thaselden
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| | Re: ASMI POSITION STATEMENT for youth pitchers
« Reply #6 on Aug 13, 2009, 1:55pm » | |
Yeah Little League has a lot of experience, in abusing arms.
I agree with you that ASMI probably did what they had to do in order to get Little League to agree to ANYTHING. And that was a good start. But I think NOW is the time to speak out strongly. I like your statement in your other post, "Advise what is best, not what will be accepted."
Aug 13, 2009, 1:38pm, daque wrote:"And if you're talking about ASMI's proposed limits they should be your ORIGINAL limits, not the watered down version you agreed to in order to appease Little League."
Little League is not without experience in this matter. ASMI made a suggestion as to the numbers based upon their research. They couldn't really recommend a number and then add, "more or less." The numbers are not cast in stone. They are a work in progress and I have no doubt that they will modified in time. To make some concessions in an estimate does not rise to the level of appeasement. Getting LL to make concessions on work not done by them is a major step in itself.
To be dogmatic takes more clout than ASMI has at the moment. The camel has succeeded in getting it's nose under the tent. |
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daque
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| | Re: ASMI POSITION STATEMENT for youth pitchers
« Reply #7 on Aug 13, 2009, 2:34pm » | |
While I agree that LL was very slow to admit that their pitching policies needed changing and were dragged screaming and kicking towards doing so, we are where we are. BUT if kids played only LL and not for other travel teams in addition, the only time kids would be at risk with the old LL way would be at tournament time. If you accept that overuse is the main culprit, LL coaches would have to work at getting kids too much pitching time. But we are where we are and that means facing reality as to the source of the real abuse. Travel ball.
So while ASMI policy statements may be less than we both want and certainly more than the travel industry wants, it is a beginning. You have to admit that if the magic pitching limit number was, for instance, 80 some kids would be done at 70 while othes could go 85. The number 80 is an educated guess, nothing more. Emphasis on educated.
So focus your ire not on LL for their slowness to change and not on ASMI for a less stringent number than you would prefer. Focus it on the real culprit, travel ball and the insane number of weekend tournament games. Look to the abusive parents, coaches, and tournament directors.
ASMI has taken a stand. Like the ancient proverb that says, "It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness" the number of candles are growing little by little. Realize where you can make a difference. Fight battles that you can win, or at least have a chance to do so. Know your enemy. Education is key but remember that education is the solution only to the degree that ignorance is the problem.
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Glenn Fleisig, Ph.D.
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| | Re: ASMI POSITION STATEMENT for youth pitchers
« Reply #8 on Aug 13, 2009, 2:47pm » | |
Thank you for your immediate feedback. We had to take down the position statement temporarily, but it will be back up in the next few days. Stay tuned.
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thaselden
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| | Re: ASMI POSITION STATEMENT for youth pitchers
« Reply #9 on Aug 13, 2009, 3:44pm » | |
I think the reason Little League ultimately came to the table was due more to embarassment than enlightenment. They were probably thrilled when Harold Reynolds was fired by ESPN because of his comments about the outrageous number of pitches, and curveballs, kids where throwing at Williamsport. But because of Reynolds, and Andrews'/ASMI's years of beating the drum for reform, they ultimately caved. Little League's biggest asset is their TV contract. But they learned the hard way that TV can also make you look bad.
I think you and I agree on most things. I am not a big fan of travel ball either. But it's a reality that ain't gonna go away. And I don't think you can put it all on them. If a kid shows up for a Little League game on Monday and the coach finds out that he pitched over the weekend what should the coach do? Simple, don't pitch him. BUt many LL coaches will still do so. By the same token, many travel ball coaches will not hesitate to pitch a kid that pitched in a LL game earlier in the week.
Do LL rules count pitches thrown in non LL games? I don't really know. But my guess is they do not. If the kid is LL's (or BR's OR DY's) first priority they need need a rule saying that kids that pitch on the weekend cannot pitch during the week unless they meet the mandatory rest requirement. (Likewise, USSSA needs a rule that says a kid that pitches during the week may not pitch on the weekend without sufficient rest, but we know that ain't gonna happen). Is this enforceable? Probably not. Good coaches would try to abide by the rule, but those obsessed with winning would not.
Has progress been made? Yes, thanks in large part to Andrews and ASMI. But now is a good time to REALLY take the fight to them. A STRONG ASMI position paper, following on the heels of the New York Times article, would probably get a lot of media attention.
Yours in the battles,
thaselden
Aug 13, 2009, 2:34pm, daque wrote:While I agree that LL was very slow to admit that their pitching policies needed changing and were dragged screaming and kicking towards doing so, we are where we are. BUT if kids played only LL and not for other travel teams in addition, the only time kids would be at risk with the old LL way would be at tournament time. If you accept that overuse is the main culprit, LL coaches would have to work at getting kids too much pitching time. But we are where we are and that means facing reality as to the source of the real abuse. Travel ball.
So while ASMI policy statements may be less than we both want and certainly more than the travel industry wants, it is a beginning. You have to admit that if the magic pitching limit number was, for instance, 80 some kids would be done at 70 while othes could go 85. The number 80 is an educated guess, nothing more. Emphasis on educated.
So focus your ire not on LL for their slowness to change and not on ASMI for a less stringent number than you would prefer. Focus it on the real culprit, travel ball and the insane number of weekend tournament games. Look to the abusive parents, coaches, and tournament directors.
ASMI has taken a stand. Like the ancient proverb that says, "It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness" the number of candles are growing little by little. Realize where you can make a difference. Fight battles that you can win, or at least have a chance to do so. Know your enemy. Education is key but remember that education is the solution only to the degree that ignorance is the problem. |
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thepainguy
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| | Re: ASMI POSITION STATEMENT for youth pitchers
« Reply #10 on Aug 13, 2009, 4:02pm » | |
Some comments and suggestions, based on other comments and a reading of the document.
1. Too many organizations still count innings and not pitches. I would say something about why this is bad, if you haven't already (I can't recall).
2. I do agree that I would put basic pitch count limits in this document (and I would go with the original limits, not what LL adopted).
3. I agree with the comments about explicitly saying that it's bad to pitch multiple times in a game or a day.
4. A big problem is pitching multiple times in a weekend (travel ball and tournaments), and I would say something about that if you have data. IMO, that is where much of the overuse is occurring (although year-round ball and playing for multiple teams IS a problem).
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soxcrates999
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| | Re: ASMI POSITION STATEMENT for youth pitchers
« Reply #11 on Aug 13, 2009, 4:13pm » | |
That Ny Times article is alarming.. Hard forme to imagine a father allowing his son to pitch under the tangible duress he was allowed to pitch under. That kids arm collapse is entriely the fault of the father and the coach, simply awful.
That beign said, I think the document also needs to emphasize the re-entryof a pitcher in the same game. Overuse is becoming more understood but ancillary impacts like catcher to pitcher or re-entry situations need to be broadcast out load as well
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daque
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| | Re: ASMI POSITION STATEMENT for youth pitchers
« Reply #12 on Aug 13, 2009, 4:40pm » | |
Like many of you know, I am now retired and pretty much out of the game. But I ran out of time before I ran out of ideas. Here is one of them.
Get an organization such as the USOC, ASMI, or AAU to get behind pitch counts. Have a national data base and require any kid who wants to pitch anywhere to carry his card and present it to the official scorekeeper. It is then checked against the data base for how much eligibility he has. No card, no pitch.
The card would have a photo of the kid, a verification as to age as recorded by the school, and a serial number for the data base.
I would think a national business such as Coke or Rawlings would get behind it. You would have to shame the leagues and organizations into buying into it. The ball park would need a connection to the internet and that is getting really easy without a high priced computer. Maybe just a phone line and one of those store type things you swipe a card through.
The official checks the kid's photo and swipes the card. Not that tough except for the sell. Gotta go hard ball from the gitgo. Nice business for somebody.
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uspatriot
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| | Re: ASMI POSITION STATEMENT for youth pitchers
« Reply #13 on Aug 14, 2009, 7:37am » | |
That is getting way too much big brother for me. I think it is up to organizations like ASMI to research and educate the public about the issues at hand. It really should be up to the coaches and parents to regulate what happens to the kids in their charge. Even Daque admits that the pitch count limits are just general guide lines:
"So while ASMI policy statements may be less than we both want and certainly more than the travel industry wants, it is a beginning. You have to admit that if the magic pitching limit number was, for instance, 80 some kids would be done at 70 while othes could go 85. The number 80 is an educated guess, nothing more. Emphasis on educated."
Setting the limits in stone could hurt some kids and stunt the progress of others. Overuse and pitching past the point of fatigue are the issues. I think in today's society, we look too much for others to make our decisions for us. It is much easier as a coach to say - I'm not allowed to pitch this kid anymore - than to take him out because it's the right thing to do.
Like I said, parents and coaches need to be educated, not regulated.
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thepainguy
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| | Re: ASMI POSITION STATEMENT for youth pitchers
« Reply #14 on Aug 14, 2009, 9:20am » | |
Aug 14, 2009, 7:37am, uspatriot wrote:| Setting the limits in stone could hurt some kids and stunt the progress of others. |
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This is complete and utter hogwash.
The attitude that a kid will never make it to the big leagues if he isn't a stud by 12 is one of the root causes of the problem.
I am compiling a list of major league pitchers who didn't start pitching until they were older. So far, I know that both Al Hrabosky and Greg Mathews of the Cardinals didn't pitch until their Junior years in HS. They converted over to pitcher to replace guys whose arms were chewed up in grade school and high school. Also, Scott Terry converted over in the minor leagues.
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