|  Author | Topic: little league shoulder (Read 3,607 times) |
bacdorslider
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|  | little league shoulder
« Thread Started on Jul 29, 2011, 11:09am » | |
I have a 12 year old that has little league shoulder. He has a separation of the growth plate. We had an x-ray and a MRI. The shoulder surgeon took the x-ray and shut him down for 8 weeks. It did not get better. So we had the MRI to make sure. the problem is still growth plate, he said it was very clear to see on the MRI and has shut him down for another 8 weeks maybe 12 weeks. What can we do in the mean time? core workouts? running? bunting?
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thepainguy
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| | Re: little league shoulder
« Reply #1 on Jul 29, 2011, 11:18am » | |
Jul 29, 2011, 11:09am, bacdorslider wrote:| I have a 12 year old that has little league shoulder. He has a separation of the growth plate. We had an x-ray and a MRI. The shoulder surgeon took the x-ray and shut him down for 8 weeks. It did not get better. So we had the MRI to make sure. the problem is still growth plate, he said it was very clear to see on the MRI and has shut him down for another 8 weeks maybe 12 weeks. What can we do in the mean time? core workouts? running? bunting? |
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You need to take this seriously because his baseball career is in jeopardy (due to the growth plate problem, not the time off).
If he were my son I would consider shutting him down for an entire year.
Then you need to understand why the problem occurred. The odds are that he was playing too much.
This is a big deal.
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bacdorslider
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| | Re: little league shoulder
« Reply #2 on Jul 29, 2011, 11:39am » | |
Oh wait........I miss spoke he just turned 14 and is 8th grade.................One thing the doc said was the fact that he grew from 5'6 to 5'10 in a year his growth plates were "wide open"
I have always watched pitch counts and rest of between days. I have two other sons a soph at 6'3 and a freshman at 6'4 playing HS ball and they have never complained of anything other than fatigue. I took the same approach to the 8th grader that I did with the older two.....I guess everyone is different.
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thepainguy
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| | Re: little league shoulder
« Reply #3 on Jul 29, 2011, 11:54am » | |
Jul 29, 2011, 11:39am, bacdorslider wrote:Oh wait........I miss spoke he just turned 14 and is 8th grade.................One thing the doc said was the fact that he grew from 5'6 to 5'10 in a year his growth plates were "wide open"
I have always watched pitch counts and rest of between days. I have two other sons a soph at 6'3 and a freshman at 6'4 playing HS ball and they have never complained of anything other than fatigue. I took the same approach to the 8th grader that I did with the older two.....I guess everyone is different. |
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While this could be a case of bad luck and bad timing, I'd be interested to know how many games he plays each year and how many months a year he plays.
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bacdorslider
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| | Re: little league shoulder
« Reply #4 on Jul 29, 2011, 2:09pm » | |
Typically a year will start out in January in the barn throwing lightly working up to about 65-70 pitches......4-5 days rest in between throwing and the same through the season. In fact he did not throw alot this past season. he was a closer for the 8th grade team, so the 8th graders got the starts.
I nt he summer he threw a gem of a game and got up to 80 pitches....this was in middle May. The next week he was done.
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bacdorslider
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| | Re: little league shoulder
« Reply #5 on Jul 29, 2011, 2:26pm » | |
Usually plays about 7-8 months a year and pitches about 50-55 innings.
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dirtberry
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| | Re: little league shoulder
« Reply #6 on Jul 30, 2011, 5:23am » | |
bacdorslider,
Quote:| “I have a 12 year old that has little league shoulder” |
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The very large growth plate at the proximal (towards the body) end of the Humerus does not solidify until Biologically aged 19 as with the growth plates in the wrists.
Quote:| “He has a separation of the growth plate” |
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This is a recovery phase injury where the Humerus is flung down and across the chest violently where the head of the Humerus runs out of range of motion at the point the arm runs into the chest and forearm flops back to the glove side ribs. It is a typical traditional pitching mechanic injury caused from mal-mechanics.
Quote:| “What can we do in the mean time?” |
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Your son needs to learn how to fix this destructive mechanic!!
The best fix is to have him lock his Humerus in line with his shoulders from the start of the Humeral/forearm transition phase thru the acceleration phase and rotate his shoulders 180 degrees (not the 90 to 110 degrees he is now attaining) during the recovery phase by having the humerus keep its alignment with the shoulders by pronating all his pitches and having his elbow pop up at recovery instead of down supinated forearm. He must stay taller, stride shorter and drive his ball arm leg thru to the front 180 degrees also for this to happen.
Quote:| “core workouts? running? bunting?” |
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Immobilize the arm and follow the dr’s recommendations until he gets his Dr’s release to train and throw again. Most pitchers return to the same mechanics that got them where they ended up, do not make this mistake.
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bacdorslider
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| | Re: little league shoulder
« Reply #7 on Aug 1, 2011, 8:21am » | |
The best fix is to have him lock his Humerus in line with his shoulders from the start of the Humeral/forearm transition phase thru the acceleration phase and rotate his shoulders 180 degrees (not the 90 to 110 degrees he is now attaining) during the recovery phase by having the humerus keep its alignment with the shoulders by pronating all his pitches and having his elbow pop up at recovery instead of down supinated forearm. He must stay taller, stride shorter and drive his ball arm leg thru to the front 180 degrees also for this to happen.
Can you explain this so a dad can understand it a little better? thanks.
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Glenn Fleisig, Ph.D.
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| | Re: little league shoulder
« Reply #8 on Aug 1, 2011, 9:04am » | |
Jul 30, 2011, 5:23am, dirtberry wrote:Your son needs to learn how to fix this destructive mechanic!!
The best fix is to have him lock his Humerus in line with his shoulders from the start of the Humeral/forearm transition phase thru the acceleration phase and rotate his shoulders 180 degrees (not the 90 to 110 degrees he is now attaining) during the recovery phase by having the humerus keep its alignment with the shoulders by pronating all his pitches and having his elbow pop up at recovery instead of down supinated forearm. He must stay taller, stride shorter and drive his ball arm leg thru to the front 180 degrees also for this to happen. |
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bacdorslider,
While dirtberry often gives solid advice, he sometimes gets off the right road and gives advice like the quote above. How can Dirtberry know what flaws your son has in his mechanics without seeing his mechanics or knowing anything about his mechanics? Dirtberry is pushing the unusual mechanics taught by Dr. Mike Marshall to everyone, even though these mechanics have no record of success in pro baseball and also did poorly in biomechanical testing (click here, if you really to read all about it).
The first thing we need to do is make sure you are seeing a sports medicine physician with expertise in pitching injuries. Please click on my name and send me a private message about the doc you are seeing and what city you live near.
Once we confirm that we have the proper diagnosis, then we can confirm that rest is the proper treatment. We can also consider your son's mechanics at that time.
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Glenn Fleisig, Ph.D.
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| | Re: little league shoulder
« Reply #9 on Aug 1, 2011, 12:01pm » | |
Bacdorslider,
Your physician, Dr. Kaminsky, is well-trained for baseball injuries. His plan of rest and rehab seems like a reasonable course. As thepainguy said, these things take time.
Based upon your information, your son did not pitch an excessive amount. Mechanics may indeed be an issue. You may want to Once he is back to pitching with full effort, you may want to drive 3 hours South for a biomechanical analysis. To learn about this, click here.
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dirtberry
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| | Re: little league shoulder
« Reply #10 on Aug 4, 2011, 2:00am » | |
Bacdorslider,
Quote:| Can you explain this so a dad can understand it a little better? thanks. |
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Yes, but I hope this does not also stop you from browsing Dr.Fleisigs message rebuttals in that thread he sent you to?
Little league shoulder is a condition that is caused by a particular mechanic where the shoulders do not rotate fully using the traditional pitching motion during the recovery phase, leaving them only rotated about 100 degrees (the nominal traditional pitching motion) forwards from the field (line running between home and second thru the center of the mound ) driveline. When the shoulders come to a stop with this amount of rotation the Humerus that is traveling ballistically forwards then down and across the now static (still) shoulders that now falls onto the ball side pectoralis major medially (inside of the Humerus) bouncing against the chest, this action puts leveraged stress on the proximal end growth plate because the rotator cuff muscles and Glenno Humeral ligaments hold the head of the Humerus tightly within the glenoid (shoulder socket) cavity while the weight of the traveling forearm and Humerus is being decelerated by this leveraged position putting unnecessary stress at this area. You can test this by putting you arm against your belly then push that arms hand down against the glove side ribs, you can immediately feel the stress at this area even if your growth plated have solidified.
To eliminate this stress another 80 degrees of shoulder rotation combined with Humeral to shoulder alignment and elbow hinging is the way to go.
This means that when he spreads his arms away from each other during the preparation phase his arms should stay inline with his shoulders and when he arrives at the top of his pendulum swing he then turns his elbow up and locks his Humerus in line with the shoulders so that when he powerfully starts the rotation of his shoulders his humerus stays in alignment when he drives the baseball towards home from the highest possible arm vector like Kershaw , Lincecum and many more. Now when he releases the ball his arm (humerus/forearm) should retain alignment by pronating his pitches where the elbow pops up and the Humerus never slams into the pectoralis (chest) major, it just goes forwards while the shoulders have rotated out of the way and he sticks his hand straight at the target, this pronated action hinges the elbow correctly. This mechanical action switches the internal rotation of his Humerus from pectoralis major driven statically contracted pull to Latissimus dorsi driven lengthy concentric contraction where the Humerus is inwardly rotated from it full (outwardly rotated) length of motion a much better primary mover drive.
Dr.Fleisig,
Quote:
“While dirtberry often gives solid advice, he sometimes gets off the right road and gives advice like the quote above.” |
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Thanks for the disclaimer but I also let my clients pick which mechanic they prefer like the injurious nominal traditional centripetal mechanic or the non-injurious Crowstep axipetal mechanic.
Since I have physically tested all of the tenets Marshall teaches I have a particular advantage over you and others in understanding why injuries occur. You should at least try to understand that I have been instructing pitching mechanics clinically for almost 40 years and only in the last ten years have I used and thoroughly tested the Marshall information on hundreds of clients producing higher velocities better pitch types and a much better motor skill pedagogy. Not only is the road I’m on straight forwards, it is also very understandable. The quote above is exactly the way many MLB players perform it today and in days past less the fullest rotation.
Quote:
“How can Dirtberry know what flaws your son has in his mechanics without seeing his mechanics or knowing anything about his mechanics?” |
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Because he has learned through experience and testing with already injured participants that particular pathologies are a mechanics predictor and visa versa and I can tell you every injury has it’s mechanical cause and have little to do with pitch counts. Being that my mission statement concerning youth pitchers is “do no harm” I have taken this path and it has worked well beyond my past traditional understanding of what is really going on here.
You must also remember that most all youth pitchers are taught nominal traditional outside of vertical centripetal gateway mechanics and all have supinated forearm drive characteristics, this makes prediction very simple and easy to diagnose and always turns out to be correct.
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“Dirtberry is pushing the unusual mechanics taught by Dr. Mike Marshall to everyone” |
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No push going on here, I look at it as a privilege to do it here and elsewhere in that it works the way he says it does and we have had huge success at all levels including high draft picks in the MLB and the NFL using these techniques. Why would I proceed with it if it did not? We have performance records at all levels of competition already. The only unusual mechanics nowadays is the more powerful bottom half mechanics that I am not allowed to proceed with because of aesthetic considerations by the baseball establishment who do not use science in their evaluations so I am forced to use a Hybrid leg lift that greatly reduces the efficiency of the full Crowstep approach but all my youth pitchers and field players learn both so if they get a curious or reasonable coach they can perform the higher performing Crowstep motion and are able to heavy resistance train using them.
Quote:| “even though these mechanics have no record of success in pro baseball “ |
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May I remind the good Dr. that these same upper half mechanics and training won the first Cy Young award ever awarded to a relief pitcher and many now performing MLB pitchers are performing the same Lat driven mechanics like Brett Cecil, Clayton Kershaw ,Tim Lincecum and many more!!!! You tested the bottom half mechanics that alleviate bottom half injuries like Back, Hip and knee pathologies. The road we were on here was upper half mechanical problems dealing with the shoulders of which the Humerus is considered part of. It is a very easy mal-mechanical call out then fix.
Quote:
“did poorly in biomechanical testing (click here, if you really to read all about it).” |
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Really? I have read this report many times before and have not once seen Little league shoulder represented in it?
This interpretation of the results are a comparative of un-named high level fast twitch performers to named slow twitch ones and not looked at scientifically as a stand alone mechanic leaving any results opinion based and not fairly matched, having not been tested against like self performances of both.
I hope you are aware that all the individuals you tested are also accomplished traditional centripetal performers who when tested (all have entry video and velocity tags) using the traditional centripetal pitching motion all produce lower velocities than the Marshall way.
Williams when using the traditional motion can not even perform because of his still shredded Labrum that he actually could and did perform with using the Axipetal inside of vertical Crowstep motion pain free should tell you something. By the way Mr. Williams performed at the AA level using the Marshall full Crowstep motion and did very well after his first week but then was inexplicably released after the second week when the development people with the Cardinals were asked not to test the outcomes any further.
A better test that would have given you much more valuable information would have these same individuals tested with both mechanics!!!!!!!! Or a follow up with you elite group after having learned the Axipetal (Crow hop windup) delivery? But then that would have made you go through investigative effort of which you probably wish to not see happen it sounds like.
Quote:| “The first thing we need to do is make sure you are seeing a sports medicine physician with expertise in pitching injuries” |
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Unfortunately this good advise is never followed by sound Kinesiological advice!!
This is all I ever do here, is give this sound mechanical advice that no one else will provide, I will always defer to ASMI for referrals to medical professionals and surgeons for treatment from the destructive nominal traditional pitching mechanics.
Quote:
“We can also consider your son's mechanics at that time” |
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This sounds like I have stepped on your mechanical advice toes, in that, ASMI needs to make a living and would be loosing mechanical advice business if people had a source like this message board to go to, to alleviate mal –mechanics that cause most joint injuries. If you do not wish me to give mechanical advice on these message boards please say so and I will understand? I never give nominal traditional advice anyways so it does conflict with what you teach but hopefully makes you think.
My only concern is with youth pitchers, their parents and coaches that might get to put on their thinking caps who may not ever get this sound information otherwise.
“Do no harm”
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thepainguy
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| | Re: little league shoulder
« Reply #11 on Aug 4, 2011, 10:15am » | |
Aug 4, 2011, 2:00am, dirtberry wrote:| May I remind the good Dr. that these same upper half mechanics and training won the first Cy Young award ever awarded to a relief pitcher and many now performing MLB pitchers are performing the same Lat driven mechanics like Brett Cecil, Clayton Kershaw ,Tim Lincecum and many more!!!! |
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Nobody uses, or has ever used, the mechanics that Marshall advocates -- and especially the arm action -- and that includes Dr. Marshall and all of his best students.
Marshall's arm action sounds good in theory, but it doesn't work in practice. That is why, again, even Marshall's best students don't do what he says they do (which is what ASMI's study showed).
That isn't to say that ideas like pronation don't have merit.
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dirtberry
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| | Re: little league shoulder
« Reply #12 on Aug 4, 2011, 1:36pm » | |
Thepainguy,
Quote:
“Nobody uses, or has ever used, the mechanics that Marshall advocates and especially the arm action and that includes Dr. Marshall and all of his best students.” |
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Knowing that you teach centripetal traditional arm action gives you a pass on understanding axipetal inside of vertical arm action. You may try it to understand it and the huge differences that field crowhop throwers and Marshall pitchers perform but that has not happened yet so I won’t hold my breath. I doubt Dr.Fleisig agrees that the arm action is the same as the injurious centripetal action.
Quote:
”Marshall's arm action sounds good in theory, but it doesn't work in practice” |
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It not only works in practice , it works in competition and is being performed right before your untrained eyes but since you use slow speed gif’s to diagnose you will never see it let alone understand it. Besides this thread is not a Dr.Marshall thread like everybody wants it to be, the original poster wanted to talk about Little league shoulder!!!
When the painguys child manifested shoulder injury and pain that you had been warned about earlier and you ignored the information and had to shut him down for a year should leave you out of this threads conversation and since you do not answer questions I will not ask it of you that leaves me to believe you still believe pitch counts are the cause LL shoulder!!
Quote:
“That is why, again, even Marshall's best students don't do what he says they do (which is what ASMI's study showed).” |
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This study only shows you what you want it to show in your statements, comparing apples and oranges is always just that.
Quote:| ”That isn't to say that ideas like pronation don't have merit” |
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If you really understood how the forearm and Humerus worked you would know that pronation of the forearm works best from the arm vectors DR.Marshall advocates and the derogatory term so called by you “head jerk “ is acceptable by ASMI.
Since Dr.Marshall has been exposing the merits of pronation and explaining it in detail many more high level pitchers are leaving the supinated drives behind more and more every year.
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thepainguy
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| | Re: little league shoulder
« Reply #13 on Aug 4, 2011, 2:04pm » | |
Aug 4, 2011, 1:36pm, dirtberry wrote:| When the painguys child manifested shoulder injury and pain that you had been warned about earlier and you ignored the information and had to shut him down for a year should leave you out of this threads conversation and since you do not answer questions I will not ask it of you that leaves me to believe you still believe pitch counts are the cause LL shoulder!! |
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My son never had an injury.
What he did have was a possible minor irritation of the humeral growth plate. I don't know for sure because it was never that big of a deal and we never had it checked out formally. One of I disagreeistants was a pediatrician and he thought it was too low to be the growth plate and was probably muscular but I didn't want to take a chance.
It was most likely caused by his dropping his arm slot and throwing sidearm (I likely hurt my arm by doing the same thing) and was fixed by raising his arm slot and throwing more over the top (high 3/4).
I assume that is why Marshall preaches a higher arm slot, but you don't have to go full Marshall to get the benefits.
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dirtberry
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| | Re: little league shoulder
« Reply #14 on Aug 4, 2011, 4:30pm » | |
Thepainguy,
Quote:| “My son never had an injury” |
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River, Egypt!!
Quote:| ”What he did have was a possible minor irritation of the humeral growth plate” |
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Nice guess! Pain is an indicator of pathology,. You being the painfulguy should know this? The fact that you have experience with the problem discussed in this thread and were told it was going to happen in advance, then it did should send up huge red flags on the way you previously proceeded but you did not and now stubbornly at every chance talk bad about everything Marshall then actually try to use some of the tenets when you write. Since you make money off of the unsuspecting public and cause harm in youth pitchers nothing you say here should be listened to seriously.
Quote:| “I don't know because it was never that big of a deal and we never had it checked out formally” |
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Stunting growth potential at the proximal end of the Humerus because of injurious recovery phase articulations is actually a big deal and just as bad as distal end premature closure or degradation from drive stress.
Quote:
“One of I disagreeistants was a pediatrician” |
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You already knew that they get this information misdiagnosed all the time, no red flags there from you. I guess when Dr.Marshall admonished you from that rude e-mail you sent him all information just went out the other ear.
Quote:| “he thought it was too low to be the growth plate and was probably muscular but I didn't want to take a chance” |
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This was actually a prudent move on your part here and the suggestion you gave the OP was good also but anything you say about Marshall has no merit, he is the expert not you.
Quote:| ”It was most likely caused by his dropping his arm slot and throwing sidearm (I likely hurt my arm by doing the same thing) and was fixed by raising his arm slot and throwing more over the top (high 3/4).” |
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Hmmmm, capitulation on your part to fix the problem through mechanics was a good idea. Why didn’t you lower the arm slot more?
Quote:| ”I assume that is why Marshall preaches a higher arm slot, but you don't have to go full Marshall to get the benefits.” |
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No, you are right but to receive the full benefits you do. As I have said and you know even Marshall has a Hybrid motion so that his pitchers could be handed the ball by way of Kowtowing and acquiescence but when you incorporate the useless leg lift it has gateway repercussions to deal with, until you understand this you might tread lighter on the subject and be more curious like you used to come off.
The reason Dr.Marshall wants the highest of arm slots is it has you attain axipetal drive and is less joint stressful while actually adding in power and injurious prevention. This is why they can actually over load train sport specifically.
I have explained in detail how Little league shoulder occurs from the recovery phase in a thread covering this problem and had the thread directed to a different subject again and without any mechanical explanation from anybody else as usual, this scenario only tells me that there is a need to keep the same destructive mechanics performing and not from ignorance but a desire to keep the status quo.
Whether your son had growth plate stress or deltoid problems (you say you do not know?) it all stems from the same centripetal force application that is easy to fix mechanically whether you Crowstep or leg lift.
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