Sidearm Pitching Facts « Thread Started on Oct 2, 2011, 11:50am »
I have a 16 year old, 6' 4", 160lb. son who throws sidearm. He was never taught that, it is his natural arm slot. I have tried to "correct" it through the years but he always tends to drop down given the opportunity, he says it just feels right. He can throw sidearm or overhand (low 3/4) with accuracy and velocity.
As a pitcher he has been given a lot of grief. It seems that every coach or retired coach we meet tells us of the horror stories of how sidearm will eventually cripple you and that's why you don't see too many in the major leagues because they've blown out their elbow before they get there. "Its common knowledge." I have been told it is child abuse to let him pitch sidearm.
His coach is currently forcing him to throw overhand, (eliminating sidearm completely), and is stressing a more over-the-top delivery. That just seems wrong to me. I do not blame the coach, he has good intentions. He too has heard the rhetoric and thinks sidearm will ruin his arm and an over the top arm path for a tall pitcher is a better pitch. (He does throw faster overhand.) It has taken some of the fun out of pitching for my son because it is so controversial. He says now every time I pick up the ball, I have to think about how to throw it.
I have no baseball experience, played it a couple of times as a child. I have purchased a lot of books, downloaded every study I can off the Internet and have taken several videos of my son to learn what I can. I've learned about external/internal rotation, shoulder abduction/adduction, elbow flexion, pronation/supination, early/late trunk rotation, stride, balance and common injuries. I am more knowledgeable on the subject of pitching mechanics and probably more confused. Ignorance was bliss.
I am looking for concrete evidence not just common knowledge. The best evidence I have found so far is a study from Arnel L. Aguinaldo, MA, ATC, and Henry Chambers, MD, Correlation of Throwing Mechanics With Elbow Valgus Load in Adult Baseball Pitchers. "This study showed a tendency for higher elbow valgus torques with lower shoulder abduction angles. Thus in sidearm deliveries, the whipping action that results from early trunk rotation may exacerbate higher valgus loads as the horizontally placed arm lags behind into ball release. The horizontal arm slot position-as determined by trunk lean, shoulder abduction, and elbow flexion-has been shown to be associated with increased medial elbow forces".
Does this mean that a sidearm delivery with a higher shoulder abduction angle, (say between 80 and 90 degrees), late trunk rotation, (after foot plant) and increased elbow flexion will not have higher elbow forces? Thus the definition of correct mechanics of a sidearm delivery?
I have yet to read the Albright JA, Jokl P, Shaw R, Albright JP 1978 study that seams to be commonly used as a reference. Perhaps that may shed more light.
I have recently read the book "Building a Million Dollar Arm" by Tom House and Doug Thorburn. There is a chapter dedicated to sidearm where they talk about intrinsic verses functional arm slot and how staying tall or gettting on top of the ball to create a downward plane is insignificant compared to perceived velocity.
A couple quotes from their book:
" It is also a common belief among many coaches that sidearm pitchers have an increased risk for injury, even though no established link exists between the two factors. In contrast, the posture changes that are necessary for a pitcher to get on top of the ball actually do expose a pitcher to an increased risk of being injured"
"Our research-based, scientific approach to determining proper arm slot/arm path dictates that a coach should steadfastly avoid including "don't throw sidearm," "get on top" in his instructional tool kit. Balance and posture should be a coach's teaching priorities. Arm slot and arm path should be left to happen naturally."
Is there another study I should read? Should sidearm be avoided completely? Should he seek a more over the top delivery or does that carry its own set of comparable risks for injury? (The extensive list of MLB players that have had Tommy John surgery seem to be predominately overhand pitchers.)
We are not seeking a path to the major leagues. I just want my son to be the best he can be at a sport he loves to play and has a propensity for pitching success, without "crippling him for life". I want him to be successful, have fun and be safe.
I have a 16 year old, 6' 4", 160lb. son who throws sidearm. He was never taught that, it is his natural arm slot. I have tried to "correct" it through the years but he always tends to drop down given the opportunity, he says it just feels right. He can throw sidearm or overhand (low 3/4) with accuracy and velocity.
There is some evidence that throwing sidearm is more stressful and should be avoided in younger pitchers and that younger pitchers should be encouraged to throw from higher arm slots. I know that my 12U son has problems with his shoulder when he drops down and that problem goes away when he throws from a higher arm slot.
However, the fact that you see many lower arm slot pitchers in the big leagues, and in the hall of fame (e.g. Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson), says that that risk may be reduced as a pitcher gets older and matures physically.
Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 1,408 Location: Birmingham, AL
Re: Sidearm Pitching Facts « Reply #2 on Oct 2, 2011, 7:12pm »
g6,
Here is a study we conducted on sidearm pitching. If you cannot find the full article, send me an and I will email it to you.
From this study and our other research we have found:
* Amount of pitching is the #1 contributor to pitching injuries. Mechanics is secondary.
* If a pitcher has general arm fatigue, he should stop pitching for that day. If his elbow or shoulder hurts, he should stop pitching and seek medical attention.
* Arm slot is a combination of two body angles, shoulder abduction (that is, the armpit angle) and trunk lean. The important one for safety is abduction. The safest way to pitch is for abduction to be about 90 degrees. In other words, at the time of ball release, the throwing elbow should be on an imaginary line that goes through both shoulders. This is really a 3-D measurement, but you can kind of tell by looking at a video frame of release from the catcher's view.
* Our data do not indicate that sidearm is necessarily more dangerous than overhand - as long as abduction is about 90 degrees. Abduction and trunk lean are just two parts of pitching mechanics. Safety depends on these two factors and other mechanical factors (such as timing).
So in conclusion, I do not think your son needs to abandon sidearm pitching. If he has no elbow or shoulder pain, stops pitching when he is fatigued, and has good mechanics including about 90 degrees of abduction, he should be okay. If you wanted to bring him to ASMI for a biomechanical evaluation, we could quantify his joint forces during his sidearm and overhand mechanics.
Re: Sidearm Pitching Facts « Reply #4 on Oct 5, 2011, 9:59am »
The only limiting affect of sidearm pitching is that the extreme lateral component or leaning of the trunk which will in most pitchers produce an overall slowing action of the body which can adversely affect pitching velocity. Thus why you see very few sidearm MLB pitchers who throw 90 mph or more.
The only limiting affect of sidearm pitching is that the extreme lateral component or leaning of the trunk which will in most pitchers produce an overall slowing action of the body which can adversely affect pitching velocity. Thus why you see very few sidearm MLB pitchers who throw 90 mph or more.
Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 1,408 Location: Birmingham, AL
Re: Sidearm Pitching Facts « Reply #6 on Oct 5, 2011, 11:52am »
I think in general the average fastball speed of overhand pitchers is greater than the average fastball speed of sidearm pitchers, in MLB and elsewhere. However I don't think the sidearm pitching is the explanation. I think what is happening is that many sidearm pitchers were originally overhand pitchers who did not have success and good velocity so they switched to sidearm or underhand.
Joined: Nov 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 140 Location: SoCal
Re: Sidearm Pitching Facts « Reply #7 on Oct 13, 2011, 10:26am »
g6,
Don’t worry about what advanced level coaches say about sidearm pitchers and their facts that because you don’t see them in the MLB is the reason you should not go there. It is a self fulfilling prophecy in that if all of them disagree with its use then they will be less likely to be subjectively advanced. The most important thing is to get his degree in College. There is actually a lesser chance of being UCL injured if they are true side armers in that there is lesser valgus stress in a straightened out centrifuged arm than the 90 degree bent elbow of a ¾ arm vectored pitcher who then bounces it backwards at the start of the acceleration phase. If he keeps his Humerus in line with his shoulders then he will avoid the roll across the glenoid fossa of the head of the humerus that causes shoulder injuries. Don’t worry about lesser velocity, this is a fools game of ignorance that if he gets outs with his velocity and movement is what counts. The only problem with true sidearmers is lesser pitch types and perceived conjured up problems with established coaches that you all ready have run into. It is the area between true sidearmers and high arm vectored pitchers that have all the injury problems.
Don’t worry about what advanced level coaches say about sidearm pitchers and their facts that because you don’t see them in the MLB is the reason you should not go there. It is a self fulfilling prophecy in that if all of them disagree with its use then they will be less likely to be subjectively advanced. The most important thing is to get his degree in College. There is actually a lesser chance of being UCL injured if they are true side armers in that there is lesser valgus stress in a straightened out centrifuged arm than the 90 degree bent elbow of a ¾ arm vectored pitcher who then bounces it backwards at the start of the acceleration phase. If he keeps his Humerus in line with his shoulders then he will avoid the roll across the glenoid fossa of the head of the humerus that causes shoulder injuries. Don’t worry about lesser velocity, this is a fools game of ignorance that if he gets outs with his velocity and movement is what counts. The only problem with true sidearmers is lesser pitch types and perceived conjured up problems with established coaches that you all ready have run into. It is the area between true sidearmers and high arm vectored pitchers that have all the injury problems.
This is nonsense.
The abduction angles are all pretty much similar. The difference is how much the shoulders tilt.
Joined: Sept 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 40 Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Sidearm Pitching Facts « Reply #9 on Oct 16, 2011, 10:03pm »
It's a lot easier if you just stop responding to him and just speak generally about Marshall's stuff. None of it is peer-reviewed or experimentally confirmed. There's probably plenty of value in the research he initially did 30 years ago, but real research means continuing education - not leaning on antiquated biomechanical theories since updated.
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