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Brent
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Is long tossing 250 ft plus bad for arm?
« Thread Started on Jul 27, 2009, 10:35pm »
I was hoping Dr. Glenn Fleisig could respond to this issue. I wrote an article about how Alan Jaeger's long tossing program of throwing the ball 250 feet plus is bad for your arm and I used the case studies performed at ASMI as evidence. You can read the article here:

http://topvelocity.net/the-proper-research-on-why-long-toss-is-bad-for-your-arm/

I have worked with some students of Alan Jaeger who experienced serious elbow pain after his program. I am hoping to have a ground breaking discussion about this issue. I would appreciate any information.
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wpennington
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Re: Is long tossing 250 ft plus bad for arm?
« Reply #1 on Jul 28, 2009, 2:35pm »
Brent-

Thank you for introducing this topic in the forum.

It is important to note that ASMI is not here to endorse any particular throwing program or organization, but rather to reduce the number of injuries associated with sport and performance through the utilizations of proper mechanics and practices. As Rick Peterson has pointed out, ‘In the last 10 years Tommy John surgeries have increased by 700 percent in the amateur pitching market.’ Our job at ASMI is to address this problem and offer prescriptions as to how to limit these growing numbers.

Obviously, conflicting schools of thought exist with respect to long toss programs in baseball training. I have read over your response to Jaeger’s program, which cited a handful of separate ASMI studies. While the numbers do not lie, it is important to take each of the studies in context.

The main findings of the ASMI flat ground/interval throwing project did in fact show that throwing from the flat ground is associated with a shorter stride length and less maximum external rotation (MER) at foot contact. Additionally, less trunk tilt was observed when throwing long distances. However, while elbow varus torque was seen to increase with distance, compressive forces generated at the elbow and shoulder were measured to be less in long distance flat throws. It was pointed out how this ‘may be related to the low incidence of throwing injuries in non-pitchers.’

Clearly, within the data itself there is an argument both for, and against, the use of long toss routines in baseball training. While the long toss debate has drawn more controversy over the past few years and arm injuries have increased, ASMI has decided to revisit the question with more knowledge and precision. More is known about throwing mechanics today than when the previous studies were completed- around 1995-96- and several limitations present in previous studies can now be addressed, including a more accurate program to analyze the data. Finally, it is important to note that no studies have been conducted examining throwing from 180+ feet so no definitive, quantitative statements can be made about throwing mechanics, forces, etc during any 'extreme long toss' until any data is gathered.

Until these studies are complete, there is plenty to discuss with regards to long toss training and how it transfers into pitching and qualitative mechanics. There are many opinions available in books, the web, etc that discuss individual coaches’ philosophies and training methods. With that said, there is obviously a dissonance in opinions, including whether or not long toss is healthy for pitchers or transferable to pitching on a mound. Pitching coaches like TopVelocity.net and Dick Mills do not promote long toss training, citing that it is inefficient does not promote actual pitching mechanics. Others like Alan Jaeger and Ron Wolforth swear by it, saying it increases arm strength, endurance, and ball velocity. While some take a sort of middle ground approach, like Tom House (from The Pitching Edge):

‘Throw, throw, and throw with short, medium, and long toss to tolerance. Distance magnifies mechanical mistakes and increases risk of injury due to poor strength, low endurance, or muscle failure. Tolerance means athletes should throw at distances where perfect mechanics and functional strength and endurance match up. [A small, weak athlete with poor mechanics should throw at shorter distances; an athlete in muscle failure from a previous outing should throw only at a distance where stiffness or soreness doesn’t affect mechanics.]’

Hopefully this will help contribute to any discussion regarding long toss that will help shape future ASMI research in the area.

-Wes
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soxcrates999
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Re: Is long tossing 250 ft plus bad for arm?
« Reply #2 on Jul 28, 2009, 2:56pm »
Long toss produces kinematics that are obviously different than those employed with pitching. These kinematics differ IMO because, in order to cover the longer distances, a much earlier, or higher release point is required hence the shorter stride length, less external rotation (ER), less forward trunk flexion (FTF), not to mention the momentum one must create to cover those distances that cannot be employed on a mound. While I do not advocate for principals of specificity in all aspects of pitching training, I do believe long toss can be detrimental to not only the development of a pitcher,but to the recoveryof one as well.

Long toss advocates point to the "strengthening of the arm" as the main catalyst in the utilization of long toss when in fact high speed video shows that arm strength is really more of a product of total body conditioning, as kinematically, internal rotation angular velocity is one of the last elements in the kinematic chain.

i do subscribe to the belief that the best methodology to teach one to pitch, is to actually have them pitch within the parameters in which they will compete. Long toss has virtually none of those parameters.
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roger
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Re: Is long tossing 250 ft plus bad for arm?
« Reply #3 on Jul 28, 2009, 3:10pm »
Good post, Sox.

Just an FYI...
Season before last when USC (where House is pitching coach) came to town to play ASU, I went to a couple of the games. I watched very closely how the USC pitchers warmed up before the game. After some tubing and other dynamic warm-up stuff, then started to play catch and gradually backed out into some long toss. But they appeared to only go out as far as they could while still maintaining proper pitching mechanics. In other words, instead of long toss they did "long pitching". (Ha! Just coined a new term!)
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thaselden
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Re: Is long tossing 250 ft plus bad for arm?
« Reply #4 on Jul 29, 2009, 12:55pm »
Several years ago there was an article in Collegiate Baseball about the long toss program at Russell County High School in Alabama. Russell County is coached by Tony Rasmus, father of the St. Louis Cardinals centerfielder. At the time of the article Russell County, fresh off a national title, had 9, that's right 9, kids who could throw 90 mph. The focus of the article was the long toss program the kids were on. They long toss for MAXIMUM DISTANCE, YEAR ROUND. They basically line them up on the football field and have them throw as far as possible. They do this 3 days a week, year round. According to the article they've never had anyone with a serious injury, and very few sore arms.
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thepainguy
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Re: Is long tossing 250 ft plus bad for arm?
« Reply #5 on Jul 29, 2009, 4:22pm »

Jul 27, 2009, 10:35pm, Brent wrote:
I was hoping Dr. Glenn Fleisig could respond to this issue. I wrote an article about how Alan Jaeger's long tossing program of throwing the ball 250 feet plus is bad for your arm and I used the case studies performed at ASMI as evidence. You can read the article here:

http://topvelocity.net/the-proper-research-on-why-long-toss-is-bad-for-your-arm/

I have worked with some students of Alan Jaeger who experienced serious elbow pain after his program. I am hoping to have a ground breaking discussion about this issue. I would appreciate any information.


I don't think the problem is long tossing.

I think the problem is the mechanics (in particular the arm action) I see in some of the guys in his video. That may be tied into an over emphasis on velocity.

My concern is that people are encouraged to do whatever allows them to throw farthest (and thus fastest). That can sometimes lead people to use arm actions that IMO increase the load on the elbow and shoulder.
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Chris O'Leary
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Re: Is long tossing 250 ft plus bad for arm?
« Reply #6 on Jul 29, 2009, 4:31pm »

Jul 27, 2009, 10:35pm, Brent wrote:
Iwrote an article about how Alan Jaeger's long tossing program of throwing the ball 250 feet plus is bad for your arm and I used the case studies performed at ASMI as evidence. You can read the article here:

http://topvelocity.net/the-proper-research-on-why-long-toss-is-bad-for-your-arm/


Regarding some of the things that are said in the article...


Quote:
I have stated on this website that long toss is not as effective in developing velocity because it forces the thrower to use more of the arm to throw the ball a long distance like 300 feet. I also said that if you want to increase velocity you must develop throwing mechanics that use more big muscle groups, like the core and legs, rather than the small muscle groups, like the shoulders and arm.


I don't think there's any basis for this statement.

When I look at long toss throws at 60 FPS (I have filmed multiple major leaguers long tossing before games), I see good use of the core.

I don't see anything that is particularly arm-y in long toss throws.
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Chris O'Leary
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Re: Is long tossing 250 ft plus bad for arm?
« Reply #7 on Jul 29, 2009, 6:04pm »

Jul 29, 2009, 12:55pm, thaselden wrote:
Several years ago there was an article in Collegiate Baseball about the long toss program at Russell County High School in Alabama. Russell County is coached by Tony Rasmus, father of the St. Louis Cardinals centerfielder. At the time of the article Russell County, fresh off a national title, had 9, that's right 9, kids who could throw 90 mph. The focus of the article was the long toss program the kids were on. They long toss for MAXIMUM DISTANCE, YEAR ROUND. They basically line them up on the football field and have them throw as far as possible. They do this 3 days a week, year round. According to the article they've never had anyone with a serious injury, and very few sore arms.


Here’s a link to the story. You got close, but you prolly ought to refresh yourself.

http://www.baseballnews.com/features/russell_co_hs.htm

The bottom line is, there’s a lot more to his program than long toss.

Since they had 6 last year, I wonder if this year they’ll have 9 or 10 players that can throw over 90.
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dustin
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Re: Is long tossing 250 ft plus bad for arm?
« Reply #8 on Jul 29, 2009, 7:12pm »
For Arm Health, Strength, Endurance and Recovery Period there is no substitute for allowing the arm to stretch out, progressively, to it's furthest distances with arc. "The body will organize itself based upon the goal of the activity (Berstein/See Paul Nyman)." Furthermore, what most people don't understand about long toss is that the angle needed to throw a ball, per se, 330 feet promotes and equal and opposite angle downhill when 330 feet is taken into 60 feet. There is also an athleticism, explosiveness and dynamic that cannot be approached by a pitcher taking a 120 foot, linear throw into 60 feet.
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Brent
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Re: Is long tossing 250 ft plus bad for arm?
« Reply #9 on Jul 30, 2009, 8:24am »
All great points! I look forward to the day that ASMI can complete an up to date study on the arm health when Long Tossing 250 feet plus. I would even be honored to be apart of the study.
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Re: Is long tossing 250 ft plus bad for arm?
« Reply #10 on Jul 30, 2009, 3:47pm »
Stretching the arm out? The shoulder joint already rotates as fast as 7200 degrees per second making it the fastest movement the human body can produce, promoting further laxity in that regard is a bit perplexing.

How does ones body get into the position to throw a ball 300 feet regardless of the supposed downward trajectory of oppositie and equal? It requires the manafacuring of significant momentum prior to ball release that can and will never translate onto a pitching mound.


As Roger pointed out earlier, if one has to throw longer distances as a pitcher they need to make sure the mechanics of pitching vs. throwing are not compromised and once recruitment patterns deviate from those employed to pitch, it becomes the law of diminishing returns IMO.
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Re: Is long tossing 250 ft plus bad for arm?
« Reply #11 on Jul 30, 2009, 7:09pm »

Jul 29, 2009, 7:12pm, dustin wrote:
… Furthermore, what most people don't understand about long toss is that the angle needed to throw a ball, per se, 330 feet promotes and equal and opposite angle downhill when 330 feet is taken into 60 feet. …


Just so I understand, let me set a scenario as to what it sounds like you’re saying, and you see if I get it correct.

You’re saying, if a pitcher on a mound could be frozen a microsecond before release, then taken to home plate and pointed toward center field, then unfrozen and allowed to finish the pitch, he’d throw the ball 330’ because of the launch angle of the ball.


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Brent
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Re: Is long tossing 250 ft plus bad for arm?
« Reply #12 on Jul 31, 2009, 12:53pm »
Jaeger's program will take a blow with the latest news on Zumaya. Zumaya is one of Jaeger's number one guys and he has continually been plagued with injury. Is this the cause of Jaeger's extreme throwing program or just bad luck? This is what concerns me about Jaeger's program. The article below says Zumaya has a stress fracture in his throwing shoulder which will end his season.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/story/2009/07/30/sp-tigers-zumaya.html
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Re: Is long tossing 250 ft plus bad for arm?
« Reply #13 on Jul 31, 2009, 1:10pm »
Zumaya has had some other mechanical deficiences but my fear with long toss, never mind long distance long toss, is the proximal force the shoulder has to uindertake under such extreme levels of stress, not to mention the fact that the kinematic nature of long toss is the antithesis of pitching.
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Re: Is long tossing 250 ft plus bad for arm?
« Reply #14 on Jul 31, 2009, 10:50pm »

Jul 31, 2009, 12:53pm, Brent wrote:
Jaeger's program will take a blow with the latest news on Zumaya. Zumaya is one of Jaeger's number one guys and he has continually been plagued with injury. Is this the cause of Jaeger's extreme throwing program or just bad luck? This is what concerns me about Jaeger's program. The article below says Zumaya has a stress fracture in his throwing shoulder which will end his season.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/story/2009/07/30/sp-tigers-zumaya.html


Zumaya's mechanics are some of the worst in baseball (major Inverted V). You could argue that the long toss program helped him tolerate them a bit longer.

However, the root cause of his problems is his mechanics, not long toss.

P.S. You attacks on Jaeger and loss tong are a bit of a reach (and getting old).
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