|  Author | Topic: hand speed and pitch speed (Read 656 times) |
laflippin
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|  | Re: hand speed and pitch speed
« Reply #30 on Nov 4, 2009, 11:32pm » | |
Yeah, 10% sounds like a reasonable estimate to me too, curious.
Even if the detection threshold was as high as 15 or 20% difference, the uncertainties in the ShIRV and EEV numbers given in this thread are in that same ballpark.
Then, if you take a CU/FB ratio with those numbers (for example to get an estimate that the CU ShIRV is 85% of the FB ShIRV, the original uncertainties are propagated and amplified in the quotient.
I'd rather see lots and lots of data extracted from differences between FB and CU kinetics of individuals, not means from groups.
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Dave Fortenbaugh, M.S.
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| | Re: hand speed and pitch speed
« Reply #31 on Nov 5, 2009, 2:47pm » | |
Nov 4, 2009, 11:32pm, laflippin wrote:.
I'd rather see lots and lots of data extracted from differences between FB and CU kinetics of individuals, not means from groups. |
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The Fleisig et. al. study (college) and Dun et. al study (youth) both used similar statistical methods to compare the data. Pitchers WERE compared to themselves (for stats knowledgeable folks, repeated measures ANOVA with alpha = .01).
Both studies showed the EEV and ShIRV to be significantly different between fastballs and changeups. Youth pitchers also showed significant differences between fastballs and curveballs in EEV and ShIRV, while college pitchers did not.
curious, laflippin, and others have brought an important concept that sounds like it could be the thesis or dissertation of an eager young researcher. That is, not only what are the differences between pitch types, but can a batter detect these differences? If so, to what extent?
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scorekeeper
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| | Re: hand speed and pitch speed
« Reply #32 on Nov 5, 2009, 4:25pm » | |
Nov 4, 2009, 8:40pm, curious wrote:I'm going to throw 10% out there for consideration--i.e, all other things being the same as a fastball-- if a pitcher slows his arm down 10% or less, it's undetectable to a batter. Based on the notion that it's difficult to discern speed (and speed differential) of an object coming right at you. A pitching arm is coming right at you.
And, as prev. mentioned, a batter is staring at the release window, not at the pitching arm per se. curious |
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I’m not so sure exactly what batters are staring at. I know what they say they’re consciously focusing on, but I don’t know that anyone has yet determined how much the unconscious mind has control over the situation.
I wish there were some way to prove how much of baseball is done unconsciously, but as far as I know, we haven’t gotten there yet. But, we do have bits and pieces of anecdotal evidence that seems to me to lead toward there being much more unconscious control than people want to believe.
FI, how many times have we seen even the very best hitters swing at a pitch that at no time could possibly have looked like it was going to be a strike, or not swing at a pitch literally right down the pike? To me, it often seems that no matter what the hitter may be trying to think, they’ve made some kind of unconscious decision, and no matter what, they’re gonna carry that decision out.
Using that thought process, why isn’t it possible that the unconscious mind picks up the subtle differences in the pitcher’s movements, does the calculations, and passes them on to the part of the brain that controls physical movements. To me it’s a lot like kids playing “Flinch”. Its nearly impossible to not flinch when someone makes a movement that normally would end up with someone being punched in the face or the stomach.
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thepainguy
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| | Re: hand speed and pitch speed
« Reply #33 on Nov 5, 2009, 4:30pm » | |
Nov 5, 2009, 2:47pm, Dave Fortenbaugh, M.S. wrote:| curious, laflippin, and others have brought an important concept that sounds like it could be the thesis or dissertation of an eager young researcher. That is, not only what are the differences between pitch types, but can a batter detect these differences? If so, to what extent? |
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I know a lot about video because I used to work for an MPEG encoding company where I learned a LOT about video. The president of the company was one of the guys who wrote the MPEG spec.
MPEG, and video and film, is all about understanding least noticeable differences and using those to your advantage when compressing things.
Video and film frame rates give you a sense of that threshold, and you see lots of numbers that cluster in the 3 to 5 percent range (24 FPS = 4.16% difference and 30 FPS = 3.33% difference). People start noticing frame rate flicker when the frame rate drops below 20 FPS (5% difference).
That is one reason why I use 5% as a SWAG for statistical significance.
If you look at really good straight change-up differentials, they tend to be in the 7 to 10 percent range, which gives you a sense of the upper limit of the range. Any speed difference more than 10 percent is going to be noticed by good hitters, but any speed difference of less than 7 percent or so can be adjusted to by the hitter via extension.
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laflippin
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| | Re: hand speed and pitch speed
« Reply #34 on Nov 5, 2009, 5:15pm » | |
re: "...you see lots of numbers that cluster in the 3 to 5 percent range (24 FPS = 4.16% difference and 30 FPS = 3.33% difference). People start noticing frame rate flicker when the frame rate drops below 20 FPS (5% difference)."
--------This is pure babble.
24 FPS means that each single frame lasts for 4.16% of 1 second and 20 FPS means that each frame lasts for 5 % of 1 second.
A difference of 1 FPS, as for example 24 FPS vs 23 FPS, is probably not discernible under normal circumstances.
The difference between 20 FPS and 24 FPS, which is detectable, is found by simple subtraction: 4 frames
4 FPS represents a 17% difference between 24 FPS and 20 FPS.
But, it is highly questionable whether any of this has relevance to detection of the difference between speeds of real moving objects, since in reality a pitcher's motion does not exhibit any strobe effect, or 'flicker'.
There is no reason to believe that the eye/brain can detect speed differences between smoothly moving objects with the same facility that a 'flicker threshold' can be detected from a strobe source.
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soxcrates999
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| | Re: hand speed and pitch speed
« Reply #35 on Nov 6, 2009, 12:27pm » | |
As pitching coaches one thing that cannot be overlooked is the fact that instructing a pitcher, no matter the age, to arbitrarily slow down arm motion would most likely have significant impact on overall pitching mechanics. Pitching is about timing and sequencing both of which are regulated by the mechanics imposed upon them. This in my opinion could become a slippery slope.
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roger
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| | Re: hand speed and pitch speed
« Reply #36 on Nov 6, 2009, 6:56pm » | |
Great point, Sox! Pitching does need to be looked at from a holistic point of view. Tuning one's mechanics is much like tuning guitar. Adjusting one string affects all of the others.
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curious
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| | Re: hand speed and pitch speed
« Reply #37 on Nov 7, 2009, 9:24am » | |
Nov 6, 2009, 12:27pm, soxcrates999 wrote:| As pitching coaches one thing that cannot be overlooked is the fact that instructing a pitcher, no matter the age, to arbitrarily slow down arm motion would most likely have significant impact on overall pitching mechanics. Pitching is about timing and sequencing both of which are regulated by the mechanics imposed upon them. This in my opinion could become a slippery slope. |
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I agree that instructing a pitcher to slow down his arm could become a slippery slope. But, at the same time, I think it's useful for coaches to know that when collegiate pitchers throw a changeup that's 10% slower than their fastball, their armspeed is reduced by 10%. Telling pitchers that the speed reduction is achieved via the grip is a useful myth.
We should explore whether changeup grips are actually more about movement than about speed reduction. For younger pitchers--HS and below--where speed reduction and command is a priority ahead of movement--we should consider reinforcing the importance of using whichever changeup grip promotes the ability the throw the pitch for a strike, since the mythical full-arm-speed-that-isn't will take care of much of the speed reduction.
Since myths die hard in baseball, it will probably be a few decades before the implications of the ASMI findings begin to filter down to pitching coaches.
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laflippin
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| | Re: hand speed and pitch speed
« Reply #38 on Nov 7, 2009, 11:17am » | |
curious,
You make some good points, I've always been in favor of coaches knowing far more about their craft than they necessarily have to convey to athletes at an intellectual level. Coaches need to be able to help athletes achieve their best possible performance, when it matters most--how they do that is not always a linear transfer of 'coach-knowledge' to the athlete.
Getting back to this issue of speed difference detection, the hitter/pitcher match-up is made to favor the pitcher in this regard. It is much more difficult to make subtle distinctions about the speed of an object coming directly toward you than when you are able to view the same speeding object from the side. Linear velocity is distance divided by time, of course, and a straight-on view does not allow for good estimations of the distance an object may travel toward you in a given (very brief) amount of time. So, all of the baseball managers in the stands sitting at a right angle to the pitch trajectory can say with confidence that they wouldn't have struck out swinging ahead of that last change-up...but it's not so easy for the hitter who faced it head-on.
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scorekeeper
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| | Re: hand speed and pitch speed
« Reply #39 on Nov 7, 2009, 12:23pm » | |
Nov 7, 2009, 9:24am, curious wrote:| I agree that instructing a pitcher to slow down his arm could become a slippery slope. But, at the same time, I think it's useful for coaches to know that when collegiate pitchers throw a changeup that's 10% slower than their fastball, their armspeed is reduced by 10%. Telling pitchers that the speed reduction is achieved via the grip is a useful myth. |
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If I may, I’m going to tell you what I get from your post. Your assumption is that because collegiate pitchers slow down their arms when throwing a CU, that its both the best way to achieve velocity reduction, and that saying otherwise is absolutely wrong.
Quote:| We should explore whether changeup grips are actually more about movement than about speed reduction. For younger pitchers--HS and below--where speed reduction and command is a priority ahead of movement--we should consider reinforcing the importance of using whichever changeup grip promotes the ability the throw the pitch for a strike, since the mythical full-arm-speed-that-isn't will take care of much of the speed reduction. |
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WOW! Not only are you absolutely positive that a higher arm speed CU is no good, you’re also positive that the grip has more importance to movement than to velocity reduction. If that’s all true, then why bother to use different grips at all? Just use the FB grip and slow down the arm for the best control. Then, when movement is desired, use a grip for a breaking pitch.
Quote:| Since myths die hard in baseball, it will probably be a few decades before the implications of the ASMI findings begin to filter down to pitching coaches. |
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What myth? Because you don’t think the higher the arm speed, the more effective a CU can be doesn’t mean it’s a myth. As far as I can see, ASMI has only shown that even collegiate pitchers haven’t got the ability to throw a CU with an arm speed close to FB arm speed. It doesn’t PROVE that it makes the CU better.
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soxcrates999
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| | Re: hand speed and pitch speed
« Reply #40 on Nov 7, 2009, 7:55pm » | |
What still remains unanswered in all of this is what or why does the arm speed slow when throwing a change up? Assuming these pitchers are throwing their CU's with fastball arm speed or at least commited to throwing it with fastball arm speed, there is no conscious effect to slow the arm. If forearm angle and grip play no role in reducing the arm speed as the research has indicated, what then causes this consistent reduction in arm speed? Trajectory? Spin? Unconscious and involuntary arm speed reduction when throwing this pitch??
I still find it hard to believe that forearm angle has no impact on SHirv or especially EEV.
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laflippin
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| | Re: hand speed and pitch speed
« Reply #41 on Nov 7, 2009, 8:48pm » | |
re: "..The difference in arm speed is most likely NOT due to changes in forearm and wrist position between pitches. The Barrentine et. al. study Dr. Fleisig mentioned earlier showed no significant differences between fastballs and changeups in the orientations of the forearm and wrist."
---This conclusion probably merits additional investigation. Many experienced coaches encourage considerable preset pronation, and pronation at the release point, when teaching pitchers how to throw change-up pitches. Most coaches also advise pitchers not to purposely diminish their arm-speed or change their mechanics in any other significant way for the change-up.
Pronation prior to and/or simultaneous with the release point reduces the amount of leverage (torque) that the fingers can apply to the ball, even when the arm, wrist, and fingers are traveling at the pitcher's 'fastball speed'. To take ~12-15 mph off of the ball, while still making it look indistinguishable from a pitcher's fastball, is not easy.
The pronation at release can impart some screwball-like movement to change-up pitches, which is also useful.
When change-up grips are released palm-forward with three fingers directly behind the ball, they tend to produce mediocre fastballs rather than quality change-ups.
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soxcrates999
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| | Re: hand speed and pitch speed
« Reply #42 on Nov 7, 2009, 8:59pm » | |
I agree with your assessment flippin..well said. I, in an earlier post in this thread spoke to the fastball forearm angle being in what I would think is a much better position to use the whole hand so to speak. Glenn spoke to the fact that the speed of the middle finger is the speed of the ball at release, is this "finger speed" enhanced with a fastball palm position in relation to a curve or a slider or obviously a change up? Either way I agree with more assessment beign warranted on the impact of forearm angle on EEV.
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scorekeeper
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| | Re: hand speed and pitch speed
« Reply #43 on Nov 8, 2009, 12:38pm » | |
Nov 7, 2009, 8:48pm, laflippin wrote:| . . .Pronation prior to and/or simultaneous with the release point reduces the amount of leverage (torque) that the fingers can apply to the ball, even when the arm, wrist, and fingers are traveling at the pitcher's 'fastball speed'. To take ~12-15 mph off of the ball, while still making it look indistinguishable from a pitcher's fastball, is not easy. |
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I want to make sure I do my best to qualify what I’m saying. When I say CU, I’m not simply talking about a pitch that has a different velocity than the previous pitch, which is in fact what a “CHANGE UP” is. I’m talking about a pitch that is relative to a pitcher’s “best” FB.
That pitch is intended to give the batter every indication that it is in fact the pitcher’s best FB. In doing that, the timing of the entire motion should be as close to what the pitcher uses for his FB is very important. Also, the arm slot should be as close to the FB slot as possible to get the RP as close as possible too. But, the thing that might be the most important, is getting the rotation orientation as close as possible.
The thing is, the whole idea behind the CU is, its intended to deceive the batter as long as possible, but all the studies in the world about the way its thrown can not quantify the effectiveness. That’s because there’s absolutely no way to measure how all the different batter’s will perceive the pitch.
Having said that, where did taking 12-15mph off a pitcher’s FB suddenly become the standard? Not very long ago it was a 10mph difference that was the target. What’s changed?
Quote:| The pronation at release can impart some screwball-like movement to change-up pitches, which is also useful. |
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While any movement is useful, is that the real value in a CU?
Quote:| When change-up grips are released palm-forward with three fingers directly behind the ball, they tend to produce mediocre fastballs rather than quality change-ups. |
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IMO, what there may well be a set of circumstances where that’s true, overall it’s a poor statement of fact. Your description of the grip doesn’t take into account the wide variety of ways the 3 fingers could be “behind” the ball. Of course if you mean all 3 fingers touching, just as the index and middle fingers touch for a pure FB, and that the ball be held on the tips of the fingers just as a pure FB, I’d agree your description would be a fair one.
But even if what you said was true about it producing only a “mediocre” FB, does that necessarily mean it wouldn’t be an effective CU? I say a lot depends on the pitcher’s style.
But even so, I know of no one who advocates simply moving the ring finger over and maintaining everything else the same. I’ve said hundreds of times that doing that, a pitcher can not attain the same velocities as they can with only two fingers, and I’ve proved it on more than several occasions using a gun. But that’s only to get the mind started down a path, not to say its would work very well.
Once the pitcher understands the concept of using the grip rather than slowing down the arm to reduce velocity, it doesn’t take much encouragement to get them to experiment on their own to find what works best for them. Usually, they find that the ball moved away from the fingertips will decrease the velocity more the farther toward the palm it gets.
They’ll also find that just like spreading the index and middle finger for a FB will reduce the velocity, the same thing happens with the 3 fingered grip. With two fingers, that grip is modified until it becomes what’s know as a fork ball, and with three fingers, the claw.
http://www.infosports.com/scorekeeper/images/CUnew.jpg
At any rate, the important thing is, pitchers who use their heads for something more than a hat rack, will experiment with a CU more than any other pitch until they find something that works well for them. Pitchers who simply listen to so a coach who tells them to throw their CU one way because it works for say Johan Santana, and don’t experiment, will more than likely end up with a CU that is nowhere as good as it could be.
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curious
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| | Re: hand speed and pitch speed
« Reply #44 on Nov 10, 2009, 11:57am » | |
This implications of this thread--and the ASMI data-- should NOT be shared with pitchers--we should continue to deceive the pitchers so that they can better deceive the batters.
The Belief: It is widely believed by coaches and pitchers that the speed reduction in a properly thrown "full-arm-speed" change-up occurs as a result of increased friction at release between the hand and the ball, due to the change-up grip.
But the ASMI data supports an alternate interpretation:
The Reality [based on ASMI data]: Most of the speed-reduction in a collegiate-level change-up occurs as a result of a reduction in the speed of the body parts.
The Actual Importance of the Change-up grip: Rather than increasing finger/hand friction on the ball, the grip is important to the proper execution of this pitch because the choking of the ball into the palm (physically, but unconsciously) inhibits the normal (fastball) whip action of the arm/wrist, etc.
(With a ball in your hand, try a FB and CU grip as you sit at your desk, run your arm through a range of motions, and feel the difference. Similarly, when a batter grips the bat lightly while in his stance, it reduces tension throughout the sytem)
The Change-up grip Enables Arm-Speed/Ball-Speed Reduction Despite a Fastball Mind-Set: Change-up choke-grips introduce physical tension into the wrist/arm that causes a speed reduction in spite of the pitcher maintaining a fastball mindset--i.e, the pitcher "thinks fastball" while throwing this pitch.
Self-Deception Increases the Deception of the Batter: The grip-induced arm tension slows the the pitcher's "arm speed" while enabling him to deceive himself into believing that he's using full "arm speed"--thereby increasing deception of the hitter (through duplication of fastball mechanics and delivery.) Arm-speed is reduced without conscious intention.
The "full-arm-speed" change-up is a useful myth that should be sustained.
Medical implications:
--Optimally-taught change-ups can decrease pitch-counts
-- More CU's = less FB's; that latter are more stressful on the arm
Apologies in advance for my verbosity.
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