|  Author | Topic: ATTENTION ALL PARENTS (Read 722 times) |
thepainguy
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|  | Re: ATTENTION ALL PARENTS
« Reply #15 on Oct 26, 2009, 3:18pm » | |
Oct 26, 2009, 6:57am, rockinfire wrote:| painguy: I didn't write the post to "convince" you of anything. I have been on here long enough to know that noone on this board can do that. Anytime you "question" my posts I have posted numerous research articles to prove it to you and "poof" you magically disappear. So I won't waste my time trying to "convince" of anything anymore. The post was written to inform parents of common problems. It was not authored for your approval. |
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That's of course fine, but in my opinion your list isn't comprehensive.
Some of the things that I think are missing when it comes to diagnosing the root cause of elbow problems include...
1. Presence of the slider and/or cutter and their prevalence.
2. Mechanical flaws such as timing problems (e.g. rushing) and following cues like showing the ball to CF and keeping the fingers on top of the ball.
I don't think these are things that can be excluded out of hand.
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thepainguy
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| | Re: ATTENTION ALL PARENTS
« Reply #16 on Oct 26, 2009, 3:22pm » | |
Oct 26, 2009, 6:57am, rockinfire wrote:| And, there is nothing dangerous about the sleeper stretch. Nothing. |
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I think that is questionable.
Current research suggests that the idea of static stretching is harmful, not helpful.
There is such a thing as too much joint laxity.
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thepainguy
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| | Re: ATTENTION ALL PARENTS
« Reply #17 on Oct 26, 2009, 3:24pm » | |
Oct 26, 2009, 6:57am, rockinfire wrote:| Anytime you "question" my posts I have posted numerous research articles to prove it to you and "poof" you magically disappear. |
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Please provide an example.
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jdfromfla
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| | Re: ATTENTION ALL PARENTS
« Reply #18 on Oct 26, 2009, 8:57pm » | |
Chris, how about you provide the results of what you've experienced at your clinic.
Thats what the op was, he was stating what he has experienced at his clinic..the things that he has tangibly found that were issues on kids who presented at HIS CLINIC. Now you may speculate about showing the ball to center field, or "rushing" or your own personal opinion as to how appropriate the sleeper stretch may or may not be according to you, which is of course fine. But until you operate a clinic that is board certified I'm afraid that you have no credability on this thread..at all, perhaps you have empiracal proof of these speculations on your part..other than some ortho guy agreed with you once or that a couple of scouts listen to you. I eagerly await all the proof you can provide. The original poster was providing information for the benefit of all that can read it, sniping at him as to your opine of whether or not it is comprehensive is just bad form, it's his experience.
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thepainguy
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| | Re: ATTENTION ALL PARENTS
« Reply #19 on Oct 26, 2009, 10:22pm » | |
Oct 26, 2009, 8:57pm, jdfromfla wrote:| Now you may speculate about showing the ball to center field, or "rushing" or your own personal opinion as to how appropriate the sleeper stretch may or may not be according to you, which is of course fine. But until you operate a clinic that is board certified I'm afraid that you have no credability on this thread. |
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You don't have to be board certified to know what the latest research has to say about static stretching. The New York Times recently put together a nice summary piece on the latest findings...
- http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/02/sports/playmagazine/112pewarm.html
There is also lots of good, interesting research on the relationship between joint laxity, static stretching, and injury prevention. It turns out that static stretching can be problematic because it increases joint laxity and thus increases, rather than decreases, the risk of injury.
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jdfromfla
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| | Re: ATTENTION ALL PARENTS
« Reply #20 on Oct 27, 2009, 7:13am » | |
[quote author=thepainguy board=youth thread=963 post=4950 time=1256613761
You don't have to be board certified to know what the latest research has to say about static stretching. The New York Times recently put together a nice summary piece on the latest findings...
- http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/02/sports/playmagazine/112pewarm.html
There is also lots of good, interesting research on the relationship between joint laxity, static stretching, and injury prevention. It turns out that static stretching can be problematic because it increases joint laxity and thus increases, rather than decreases, the risk of injury.[/quote]
Well I don't have issue with these comments at all, unfortunately it is about 1% of the discussion and neither Roger or Rockinfire were recommending it as an across the board thing, Roger asked if it was used, Rockinfire said it was..when indicated, now Chris...that is, as I'm sure you'll agree with me, a quite unobjectionable statement.
The thing I suggested would lend credability to your statements was that Rockinfire was stating clinically what came thru his door, your suppositions, though reasonable, investigatable, hypothisis aren't backed with data...at all.
I might suggest that you contact that othopedic fella who agrees with you and together you devise a survey that the doctor can complete when ever he has a pitcher who comes to him with specific injuries, then at that point you'll have the beginnings of supporting evidence. This is how science works, how reputation is established and credability conveyed.
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rockinfire
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| | Re: ATTENTION ALL PARENTS
« Reply #21 on Oct 27, 2009, 10:11am » | |
Painguy (as you are so aptly named):
Once again you have destroyed a community discussion by going off on one of your many tangents, as you have done over and over on this forum.
I could list MANY references supporting the sleeper stretch but as I have learned in my dealings with you (and reading your responses to other's in their dealings with you over many months) that I will never "convince" you of anything that is not already locked tightly inside your closed mind. So I will no longer waste my time and energy trying.
This is the final time I will respond to your lack of intellect.
You want an example of times I have provided proof in the literature? Well......how about your questioning my remarks regarding the hand/wrist's contribution to throwing? Or the same scenario when you tried to argue trunk tilt/leam and its contribution to increased load at the elbow. Or the percentage of the trunk and core's contribution to throwing........ and this is just 3 I can remember right now off the top of my head.
ALL of these were then referenced for you. ALL OF THEM. And your response EACH TIME was your same old tired, worn out: "I'm not convinced", "I don't buy this", blah, blah, blah.....
I actually feel sorry for you. I really do. You are obviuosly knowledgeable in many areas of our discussions, but you are so closed minded you can't even attempt to allow yourself to learn from factual sources that are from the leading experts in their field of research. How pathetic is that?!?!?
As just one example, your comments on the sleeper stretch show your complete and utter lack of knowledge on the subject, and the reason it is used. You are full of what I call "bleacher advice". That's it. And this is why you are dangerous. I live in a world professionally where (as jdfromfla so eloquently put it), your suppositions don't hold water. I need solid data firmly behind me. I need to be able to explain to a parent, grandparent, athlete, etc that what we are doing has been PROVEN to be beneficial, effective and safe.
So, with that said, I would like to personally thank you for ruining yet ANOTHER thread with your idiocy.
I hope others on this forum will follow my lead in ignoring your future "arguments". Most of them are without merit and without supporting evidence. And, if the private messages I have received are truthful, are not supported by anyone else here. I have absolutely no problem in debate, discussion, and continued education. But I have no interest in continuing to play games with you that lead to nowhere.
I will no longer reply to you and hope that by ignoring you that others will do the same
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thepainguy
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| | Re: ATTENTION ALL PARENTS
« Reply #22 on Oct 27, 2009, 10:47am » | |
Oct 27, 2009, 10:11am, rockinfire wrote:| Once again you have destroyed a community discussion by going off on one of your many tangents, as you have done over and over on this forum. |
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I fail to see how using recent research to question a recommendation is tangential.
If progress is to be made, we have to factor the findings of the latest research into how and what we advocate and teach.
I think you're mistaken about the person whose mind is closed.
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natoli
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| | Re: ATTENTION ALL PARENTS
« Reply #23 on Oct 31, 2009, 10:22am » | |
rockinfire: great information. I want to add that when a new research study comes out, lot of people and the media get crazy with what they read and take it to the extreme. Static stretching is useful when needed if needed. Is being proved that if an athlete do only static stretch before a vertical jump, the jump will decrease vs. doing nothing prior to the jump. But that does not mean that static stretching is bad all the times. For example if a person have a short hamstring, he needs to do static stretching the get that muscle longer. Same applies to other muscles. Tissue work with foam rollers is proven to work very good as well.
Rockinfire- do you have a private e-mail? You can send it to Katyathletics@hotmail.com
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thepainguy
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| | Re: ATTENTION ALL PARENTS
« Reply #24 on Oct 31, 2009, 10:31am » | |
Oct 31, 2009, 10:22am, natoli wrote:| For example if a person have a short hamstring, he needs to do static stretching the get that muscle longer. Same applies to other muscles. |
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Sorry, but this isn't how muscles work.
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rockinfire
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| | Re: ATTENTION ALL PARENTS
« Reply #25 on Nov 2, 2009, 11:55am » | |
natoli,
Your comment regarding stretching is correct. Static stretching is recommended as a corrective measure and not a "warm-up". It is now believed that static stretching prior to activity produces a temporary loss of optimal function. A dynamic warm-up is recommended prior to activity to prepare the system for the activity desired and decrease the chance of injury.
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drrobc
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| | Re: ATTENTION ALL PARENTS
« Reply #26 on Nov 8, 2009, 2:00pm » | |
My impression from reading the medical literature and speaking to some of those who have done studies on stretching is that dynamic warm up should be done before exercise and static stretching afterwards unless the athlete is too tight to go through the range of motion required for his/her sport then he/she should also static stretch beforehand.
There are those with differing opinions so I would be interested in what Rockinfire and those at ASMI think.
An good artilce was written by Ian Shrier in Physicain and Sports Medicine 2005 "When and Whom to Stretch" but it is no longer available wihtout a fee.
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thepainguy
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| | Re: ATTENTION ALL PARENTS
« Reply #27 on Nov 8, 2009, 7:24pm » | |
Nov 8, 2009, 2:00pm, drrobc wrote:| My impression from reading the medical literature and speaking to some of those who have done studies on stretching is that dynamic warm up should be done before exercise and static stretching afterwards unless the athlete is too tight to go through the range of motion required for his/her sport then he/she should also static stretch beforehand. |
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I absolutely teach dynamic, pre-activity stretching, which is more about warming up and getting the blood flowing (increasing muscular temperature) than stretching but by including the term "stretching" placates the people who haven't yet some up to speed about the problems of pre-activity static stretching.
My problem with post activity static stretching is that it is questionable. What is the objective? To promote joint laxity? If so, recent research suggests that promoting joint laxity is a bad thing and not a good thing.
In general, my problem with pre-activity static stretching is that it doesn't work, at least when it comes to reducing the likelihood of muscle soreness (I don't have any personal experience of injury problems, but I know those stories are out there). When I ran track, on days we did our distance running we used to static stretch for 15 minutes and then go straight to running. I would be horribly sore for days afterwards, to the point where I stopped running track because of how bad I felt the following few days. Now for exercise purposes I have gotten back into running. I have found that if I walk for 1/4 to 1/2 of a mile before running, and let my muscles warm up, I never have ANY post exercise soreness issues.
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Michael Ryan, ATC, CSCS
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| | Re: ATTENTION ALL PARENTS
« Reply #28 on Nov 8, 2009, 10:03pm » | |
Great discussions here.
Research supports dynamic stretching/warm up before activity and static stretching after (to help reduce delayed onset muscle soreness). I have not read any good research supporting static stretching actually reducing injuries (although many people say it does, there is nothing to support this long standing "myth") and some suggest it may be detrimental and potentially cause more joint laxity.
I am amazed to see how many pro, college, and high schools continue to use static stretching pre-play. Some coaches say they do it for a ritual and comradarie. I tell them be sure to hold for less than 5 seconds as it has been shown to decrease speed, power, and strength in numerous studies.
I do use static stretching at times (especially with "facilitated" muscles like hip flexors, gastrocnemius, pecotralis minor, and latisimus dorsi) but do not use it as my means of warming up or post exercise unless we had a very aggressive workout and early in the season to help with muscle soreness. I do contract/relax PNFs, AIS (Active Isolated Stretching), and holds of less than 5 seconds with most of my athletes during and post exercise.
Lastly, be very careful of static stretching a muscle just because there is an injury or a feeling of tightness. I think we way overdo static stretching and if done chronically may weaken muscles.
There are often many other factors related to a muscle strain so be sure to address all potential causes.
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daque
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| | Re: ATTENTION ALL PARENTS
« Reply #29 on Nov 9, 2009, 8:46am » | |
"My problem with post activity static stretching is that it is questionable."
I used to have pitchers hang by their pitching arm from the bleachers or other convenient place after pitching. While you believe it is questionable, it is not harmful and may be helpful. The pitchers believed it was helpful.
I believe it will help the discussion along if the terms being used were defined. Not all here have the backgrounds of the presenters.
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