You have never seen me use the word conspiracy in even one of my posts. You use it to suggest I am some kind of kook. Typical of your ilk.
There’s the proof in your own words. My ilk? And what is that, someone who has the audacity to consider more than one way to look at a problem?
Can you tell me how you make a scientific evaluation of fatigue. Do all the MLB injuries from pitching come from fatigue?Tell me how grown adults can't pitch a baseball 100 times every 5 days without getting hurt. When oh when will you guys connect the dots? [/quote]
More proof. You imply no one but yourself has the ability to see the true answer.
Out of respect for this forum and the other posters, this will be my last response to you on this thread.
Momentum or centripetal imperative. If you look at pictures of pitchers you will se that there is no degree of separation between the upper arm nd forearm when the bring the arm around toward homeplate at the end of their windup. This is called Forearm Flyout. In an attemt to prevent the flyout, the brachialis muscle eccentrically contracts. An eccentric contraction is one where the angle of the joint over which the muscle operates increases. So the the forearm moves away from the humerus. To be fair I believe that ASMI believes otherwise but muscles can't co-contract when operating around joints. So antagonisic muscles can't be contacting at the same time. The brachialis, which lies below the biceps brachii muscle, is antagonisic to the triceps muscle.
So why is this important? This is why misuse of the arm better start getting addressed. The brachialis muscle contacts to prevents the bones on the back of the elbow from slamming together. Especially if you are throwing curve balls, the bones still end up slamming. Patriot Jr was in a big time tournament with big time talent. I have to wonder if he relied on a curve ball more often. The Triceps muscle attaches at the back of the elbow where these bones are slamming together. Doctors mistakenly diagnose a triceps strain as the culprit when the problemis forearm flyout. So doctors send these kids off to a PT to fix a non existent problem. The real issue is one of misuse or poor mechanics.
This poor mechanic can lead to the loss of the flexion and extension range of motion in the pitching elbow among other things. Yes, throwing fewer pitches (pitch counts) helps but I think fixing the mechanic (misuse) would be even more helpful.
Post by Doug Shortridge on Mar 6, 2010 12:21:49 GMT -6
It's both "mechanics" AND "quantity". Everyone agrees on that as far as I can tell. There is one of these two which is simple to fix because it's based on simple math and simple education of parents about that simple math. (I'm slightly embarrassed for all of us that it IS so simple and yet we argue on...)
Once the pitching limits issue is handled, maybe in the next fifty years the rest can be understood and changes can be made. That way some great kid a hundred years from now can talk about what it was like in the "olden" days. Like my kid does now when he checks out the gloves they used to use. (Or smoking a cigar in the dugout...how about that one for an old-timey image?)
Doug: "I'm slightly embarrassed for all of us that it IS so simple and yet we argue on...."
I try not to argue as it ruins a good debate. Your premise is based upon the assumption that reduced numbers of pitches will in fact reduce the number and/or severity of injuries. From a threoretical stand point it makes sense but where is the proof?
As to technique flaws, I maintain that lacking overuse it makes no difference. Technique flaws without overuse is of little consequence. Overuse is the main culprit. The huge number of games per year, per weekend, and per day causes wear and tear and fatigue on non-pitchers as well. In particuar catchers.
So, as you can see, I maintain that a simplistic approach such as adherence to pitch counts, even when coupled with adequate periods of rest, may sound nice and may help to a degree but in itself is not the solution to the wear and tear besing sustained by youth baseball players.
Finally, your immediate promotion of the position that legal remedies are the best way to go, is worrisome. That is especially so with your implied threat as to your abilities to make legal trouble. At this point, I see you as a part of the problem and not a part of the solution. In the past I have raised litigation as a spectre but I do not advocate it.
Post by Doug Shortridge on Mar 6, 2010 14:42:52 GMT -6
OK daque, I'm listening.
I, more than anyone I know, realize the unintended consequences and profit motives which can result and influence any legal or legislative action to make changes to a business situation.
I think suing anyone for anything has got to be the only choice after every other option has been considered honestly.
Over-use is the primary issue according to the most up-to-date research. And many travel ball tournament companies have rules which allow for kids to pitch far in excess of the recommended amounts based on the research. This is dangerous to ignorant parents' kids.
What about, say; Chinese-made toys with lead in them? Do you think we should simply allow the parents to become educated and make their own choice? This here is the same thing as that essentially. There is an implied safety in a tournament if the rules allow for six innings the first day and then three the next for a twelve year old. At 15 pitches per inning this would far exceed the recommended limits of USA Baseball.
In some ways I think the tournament company with no limits at all is better than the one which implies something safe for kids. At least that's a clear "Buyer Beware!" situation.
Chinese made toys BECAUSE THEY ARE TOYS sit on the store shelf with an implied safety for use in child's' play. We know lead is bad for kids now (I used to play with the stuff when I was a kid.) So? Should we not have laws and courts getting on this to make sure it stops?
Youth Baseball Tournament Rules BECAUSE they are YOUTH Baseball Tournament Rules imply that the people who know how to do this business and are MAKING MONEY from doing so are selling the parents and their kids a product/service which is within known safety guidelines.
We know that over-use is a big culprit toward injury of pitcher arms. Sure there are other dangers, but over-use is shown to be a big one. Let's get the lead out now and worry about the less understood "cadmium" as well into the future.
And I'm glad I have you worried because that means maybe I have some others worried as well. This might help put more immediate attention on the subject and get people listening to you folks who have studied this for millions of years. Through that, most intelligent parents will probably realize that the one thing they can do immediately is focus on the over-use issue and that is a good thing. Fear is a good motivator if not a healthy thing to promote. Last time I checked though, our leaders in politics use it all the time. Is there any difference here? No. Business and politics has all kinds of "currency" in play. I know that.
I'm looking to get a change to travel ball pitch limits because I recognize the simple syndrome and danger which needs to be fixed. I don't care how that gets done and I can't figure out a way other than a lawsuit to do this.
But...I AM listening...you know my solution which is the only thing I can come up with given the urgency of the situation as brought to light by the out-of-the-blue injury my son had ("out-of-the-blue" for me, the typical ignorant dad caught up in enjoying his son excelling in a fun sport with great teammates with talent and in community with fun families and good people during in tough times).
Can you detail out your leadership plan in lieu of mine? I would recommend coming out from the hiding spot of anonymity as a first step. Can't expect anyone to follow a leader who is anonymous. For all I know you are the CEO of Nations or SuperSeries.
You come up with a plan to get this quickly done without court action and I'll follow you. I give you my word on that. Nobody is pulling the "trigger" yet. That is up to me at this point and I actually do understand what the ramifications of firing that shot implies. The world has not changed my friends...we are still in pretty much a madhouse as far as I can tell. War seems to break out.
OK, I will tell you what. I will tell you how I would go about it and you can do it. But first, the lead toy analogy is not valid. There is lots of evidence that ingested lead is dangerous but only empirical evidence of the dangers of overuse. But you made your point and I agree that it seems logical and pitch counts are a logical first step. Now to my proposal.
1. Get a nationally recognized sports organization on board. USOC, AAU, MLB, USA Baseball, etc. Have them be the sponsoring organization.
2. Establish the parameters such as pitch count per day, per week, per month and per year by age. Develop the age appropriate rest periods.
3. Establish a data base and issue a laminated identification card which must be presented before any youth is allowed to pitch. Have a lap top with a card reader connected to the national data base. Enter the data base. Out pops how many pitches he has left for the day if any. Rest periods are also determined. At the end of that pitching session, enter the number of additional pitches back into the cumulative data base and anything such as injuries.
4. The ID card would have a lot of other information available through the data base such as previous injuries, date of birth verified from school records, photo, etc.
5. No ID card, no pitch.
6. Playing with multiple teams would be manageable.
These are my openers. Cheaters would be banned for the season. There are a lot of, "yeah buts" to be dealt with. The big brother fear will be raised but it is not by government or court in origin.
Now you take it and run with with and ask for whatever clarification you desire. I am too old and tired to be involved. It could be a good business for someone. Any organization not on board would be listed as an unapproved organization. Bad public relations and requiring difficult explanations. For instance, if LL, Inc. refused to participate they would be an unapproved organization and players would be forbidden to participate in that organization.
Here are Dr Mike Marshall's recommenations for youth baseball. Since you are rightly keen on credentials, Dr Marshall has a PhD with a concentration in Kenesiology and played professional baseball for 20 years. Dr Marshall will tell you that neither he nor ASMI nor anyone else can tell you at what point a pitcher will break down.
I'd love to be a fly on the wall when you lay these recommendations out to your league.
I have spoken to Dr Marshall several times about relaxing his recommendations. Dr Marshall wants kids to train for 60 straight days but not pitch competitively until they are biologically 13. I think it is unrealistic to ask a 12 year old to train for 60 straight days and then not let him pitch competitively. But I don't have the credentials. He does. He does recommend that if you do have your son pitch, you use his motion. You don't strike me as being interested in how to pitch, however.
Since your main interest seems to be preventing injuries these guidelines will definitely work for you. Let us know how you make out.
I recommend getbodysmart.com as a good resource to help with the location and movement of muscles. Simply putting a search into YouTube is also often helpful. Or Google.
You wrote: "In a non-pitching motion, the triceps muscle does indeed extend the forearm. Why would it not in a pitchng mvement?"
Muscles can't cocontract when operating across joints. So if the Brachialis muscle is contracting to prevent the flyout of the forearm, the triceps has to relax. If you look at high speed film of baseball pitchers you can see this.
Once again, this is why misuse of the arm is so critical to study. The highest percentage of fast twitch muscle fibers in the arm is found in the triceps muscle. Traditional pitchers do not use it.
Once again, this is an area that ASMI might disagree.
The first thing I would do if a pitcher told me he had discomfort in the back of his elbow is check his elbow flexion and extension range of motion.
btw, the thought of kids running around with ID cards depresses me.
"btw, the thought of kids running around with ID cards depresses me."
I am always open to alternatives that will geet the job done. The problem is that you are dealing with people who are not acting in good faith. Perhaps they could just use their social security cards.
Here in Mexico we have, "topes" on the road. They equate to speed bumps and can usually be found on approaches to schools and other areas of pedestrian traffic. In the US, there are reduced speed signs. But in Mexico signs are ignored. So bone jarring speed bumps are employed and ignoring them causes your car to bottom out and your suspension to deteriorate rapidly.
Post by Doug Shortridge on Mar 7, 2010 11:59:12 GMT -6
I think the ID card approach is a good idea. But I also think I understand now where the communication failure is in this long thread we have all been participating in. I've learned a lot, I'm sure I will continue to do so. Thanks all of you for bringing out important issues.
Here's where I think the communication breakdown lies; it seems that I'm the only one participating here whose ONLY focus are the inappropriately high rules found in the for-profit tournament company realm.
These rules not only allow, but they SEND A SIGNAL TO PARENTS AND COACHES that legitimizes too many pitches in too short an amount of time. The rules have to be changed and then the loosing coaches can protest the winning coaches when someone cheats. It's simple. The problem of a kid on more than one team and making too many pitches per year is beyond what I can take on right now and besides, I have no potential power in that scenario.
The ONLY reason for my consideration of the approach through the court to correct this Pitch Limits Rule aspect of the global problem is that USA Baseball has a position statement about quantities now publicized. And I have standing to file a complaint. 1+1=2
The idea of ID cards and central database is good and maybe that would be a portion of a settlement agreement if this thing goes to court; "Defendants all agree to adopt and participate in (and pay for startup) of ID card System." I like it. That's the kind of thing the courts actually could order which is helpful.
I actually have some faith in our system of justice. It's not perfect but it's still the best one I know of. I don't have any other viable solution to my "rules change" effort.
Although...there is a rumor going around that there might be a national press expose' in the works! More on this later. I'll bet if that comes along it will get some attention from the business leaders running these things. I hear the phone ringing for a conference call now; "What are we going to do? We all look like child abusers!" (Except for those who are in deep denial and act like other child abusers and somehow believe it's not hurting the kids...those kind really need the law shoved down their throat because there is no other legal way to deal with them.)
I think USSSA is already ahead of the curve on this; they've lowered their rules dramatically as of Jan 1, 2010 which is the only reason my son is participating during my watch. (He loves playing and loves his teammates and there are some really good parents involved too...like me for instance.)
USSSA may well come out of this thing with a big business win due to the bad publicity their competitors suffer. Or maybe there's another company which will top the list by being proactive and innovative in their approach to the rising tide. That's the American way now isn't it? God Bless Baseball and the USA!
"...it seems that I'm the only one participating here whose ONLY focus are the inappropriately high rules found in the for-profit tournament company realm. "
My perspective is that your focus is too narrow to protect te vast number of kids now at risk. How would your plan protect the kids in LL, Inc., Babe Ruth, etc.etc.? The kids playing in the leagues impacted by your legal mandate also play in such other leagues. They pitch Friday night at LL and then go on to your protected leagues Saturday afternoon to pitch again.
In addition, there is no proof as to what pitch limitation number, if any, will offer the protection desided. The process is just too young. You are mixing two systems too early in the game.
What about the catchers? Where is their protection?
Your focus is on the leagues while most of us posting here have a focus on the kids. We are more interested in fixing the entire overuse problem and less interested in fixing the blame.
You seem to have the energy to do that if you choose and God knows the time is right. Look at the big picture rather than being myopic. The court solution will do more harm than good. How do you fine tune a court order that was incomplete? By going back to court. And back and back.
A bad solution is worse than no solution. Get a grasp on the entire range of problems. Then act.
Post by Doug Shortridge on Mar 7, 2010 19:58:37 GMT -6
I'm just about exhausted with the dialog on this particular thread. I'm not sure how presumptuous others may be but I know once in awhile I suffer from that grave disorder in thinking.
"A man's gotta know his limitations." - Who was that? Dirty Harry? (Clint Eastwood in one of his characters at least)
I believe we are hearing an argument of "The good is sometimes the enemy of the best".
To me, getting some rules changed lowering the maximum allowed pitching and also getting court mandated educational outreach established upon the travel ball industry is something good which does not fall under this principle. I think any movement in the right direction is good on this issue.
So I'm now done arguing about this. If I ever did have the energy to take on the big picture I sure don't have it anymore after dialoging with all you guys so far. Whew! I'm thinking that a lot of what's going on here is just recreational debate umongst retired old-timers and various others with the time and resources to do this. I've got to make a living and raise my kids. Last time I checked most people think that's a lot in itself. I agree with them. Do any of you?