Post by scorekeeper on Aug 22, 2010 14:59:56 GMT -6
You’ve got to learn a different way than being snotty, antagonistic, and patronizing to get whatever point it is you’re trying to make, across. I’m sure you’ve heard it before, but one of Mike’s greatest problems has always been weakness in being able to communicate effectively. Personally, I think it’s a shame because I believe he has a lot more to give than he’s been able to because of that problem. But that’s Mike.
I think the people who believe in him a great deal, like yourself though, have caused much more of a problem for his word getting out than he has. I know you guys get frustrated. I know there are a lot of people who carry so much hate for him that they won’t even listen to reason. I know a lot of people, including myself, don’t truly understand the message. But that means you have to work that much harder to be understanding, and even sometimes compromising, even though you shouldn’t have to.
I’m telling you that attacking Daque and bringing in bigotry and name calling to do it was just flat out one of the most disgusting things I’ve seen in any of these forums, and I’ve seen some doozies! You should be ashamed of yourself! Why don’t you explain to Mike what you did and see what he says? My guess is he wouldn’t be telling you what a great person you were.
I don’t often use the word stupid, but what you did can not be described any other way. I won’t report the post because I truly don’t like to do that, but I honestly hope one of the board moderators says something to you.
I feel like I am in the movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest when dealing with you and SK.
For others, I simply related the story to show how coaches on an elite travel team don't even know the simple rules of baseball. And also to show all the folks out there waiting to see a successful Marshall pitcher how difficult it is when the coaches don't even know the rules. While they obviously checked with the ump before the game, the decent thing to would have been to apologize to the 11 year for not the rules. As I said my brother had no intention of letting his child play for the team. To be clear, like all traditional baseball coaches these were good guys. They were simply ignorant. That is the problem. By the way, unlike you, the coach was disappointed the child did not want to play for the team.
Daque, you coached in Mexico. So if a Mexican wanted to protect his Adductor Brevis muscle then according to you, you would kick him off the team. No mavericks allowed in Mexico with the geat white dope for a coach And now I'm the bigot for pointing out that you mistaught a generation of unsuspecting Mexico.
"one flew east one flew west. One flew over the cuckoos nest."
You’ve got to learn a different way than being snotty, antagonistic, and patronizing to get whatever point it is you’re trying to make, across...I don’t often use the word stupid, but what you did can not be described any other way. I won’t report the post because I truly don’t like to do that, but I honestly hope one of the board moderators says something to you.
I know you can't help yourself because you get scared when confronted. Fear in your case goes to anger. You just have to get your little digs in to feel like a man. But you said in part:
"Daque, you coached in Mexico. So if a Mexican wanted to protect his Adductor Brevis muscle then according to you, you would kick him off the team. No mavericks allowed in Mexico with the geat white dope for a coach And now I'm the bigot for pointing out that you mistaught a generation of unsuspecting Mexico."
I coached, umpired, and scouted in the USA many years before retiring in Mexico. I coached two seasons in Mexico and then moved away from the area. In all of those years I never had a pitcher go down. That would be well over 50 years.
You failed to address a single issue I presented, as usual. Why do you continue to bring ethnicity into the issue? Any player who was unable to be coached would be released. Until you address the issues I raised on previous postings to you, I am finished discussing the issue with you. We are not having a dialog but rather parallel monologues. And you are argumentative and insulting to boot. I have always tried to give you the benefit of the doubt but no more. You are not worth the powder to blow you up with.
Maybe I am missing something here. How did you hook up with MM? Did you feel guilty about ruining your son's arm and turn to him for salvation?
For the last 5 years you've been on the net bragging about spending your children's inheritance and coaching the kidsxdown in Mexico. I simply looked at you as one of our many paternalistic Americans who would releaese a kid whose father had shown a safer way to pitch. I was right You'd be barefoot so you could count pitches.
I did not realize you mistaught a generation of Americans as well. Sorry. You may have been napping when people wrote that all these problems start at the youth level with well intentioned but I'll informed coaches like you. It takes thousands of pitches to rupture an UCL. Trust me. You did your part.
I feel like I am in the movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest when dealing with you and SK.
I really thought the disciples of Marshall had finally given up, it appears not. I have been trying very hard not to jump back in on this MM discussion, but honestly I have to ask who is on which side of the wire glass or behind the bars of the Nest here?
Kharma, if you have concerns for one of the muscles associated with groin pulls, there is another solution to not straining the adductor brevis - it's called conditioning, warming up, doing proper static and dynamic stretching, getting a nice glow on, sweating, before you throw the baseball.
My frustration with Dr. Mike comes down to this - first he had a successful pitching career, then he did research, and then he started to preach what he had not practiced during his success. Not only that, but for years he would not redo the high-speed film that led him to his conclusions and his teaching methods. A scientist who does not validate his postulations? Not much science there.
But then it gets completely off the rails, with the linear step into the pitch and the pronation of everything. Forgotten in this "cleverness" - to go back to the original question of the coach/umpire rulebook definition - is why we even have two legal pitching positions. One of them, the stretch, is for use with runners on base, to keep the runner from stealing. So I timed Marshall's instructional throws - and once his plate-facing pitcher starts forward (committing to the pitch) until the time he releases the pitch, there is on average an extra .75 seconds to that point in the delivery when compared to a regular stretch throw, never mind to a slide step throw. The pitcher might as well go into a full wind up. And if I'm the first base coach, I don't even need a stopwatch to know my guys can steal with impunity.
As if that's not enough, the pronation curve is such a readable pitch that there is little or no batter deception. If you're a hitter and you know what's coming, then the one thing that MM disciples need to be teaching their pitchers is how to twist the neck around as the hit flies by them, because those are the muscles they will be using a lot.
Look, I have no quarrel with someone like a Marshall, seeing something he thinks could be done differently or better, but my struggle is with the way he has tried to preach it all these years, and the way his disciples have taken up the cause as if they are persecuted Christians.
But then I'm really scratching my head wondering what all of this is doing under a thread on pitch count. I have never seen anything from Marshall on pitch count other than his recommendation that the count be kept to zero for everyone under the age of 16.
Last Edit: Aug 24, 2010 10:44:54 GMT -6 by Richard
1. Dr Marshall is quoted in Sports Illustrated in 1975 saying that we were ruining a generation of young arms because of the traditional pitching motion. His major league career ended on 1981 I believe.
2. In his book which is free for you to read he details the changes to his mechanics he made due to what he saw in his high speed film. This was in the 70's.
3. So you're now on record that you would have a youngster supinated the release of a curve ball. Great. Come back when ASMI "discovers" what supination does to the back of the elbow. I hope you are not a coach.
4. Please let us know what pitcher you timed using Dr Marshall's set position. Where did you do this timing? Since you don't appear to know what you don't know did you feel the pitcher was balking because he did not have his posting foot parallel to the rubber?
5. Scratch your head no more. As for pitch counts, as I have stated here, Dr Marshall is on record as saying pitch counts will set him back five years in his quest to eliminate pitching arm injuries.
6. Dr Marshall recommends that children do not pitch competitively until they are biologically 13 years old not 16
7. If you think you can tell what pitch is coming......get a bat.
Your ignorance and laziness is yet another example of baseball guys that should know better contributing to the dumbing down of America.
You are entitled to your opinion you are not entitled to your facts.
Kharma, I am still just amazed that you resort to insults and just plain rudeness to get your message across. You seemed to get better for a little while, but what you throw into your comments is really just uncalled for and childish. If you want to try to educated others on your position on the pitching motion, fine. I really don't think anyone here has a problem with that, but why be insulting? I really just don't get it. I had thought you were bigger than that.
Don't worry about it, uspatriot, I don't. I don't imagine Kharma has a clue about who I am or what I do and don't know, and it shows. Nor do I imagine he will listen to you or me or daque or anyone on this board anyway. Should I even bother?
My message was to those who might drop in and take anything he said seriously. Fortunately, as you and others have pointed out, through his language and his behavior he shows his true colors. Not pretty.
I don't know where he jumped to the conclusion that I said anything about supinating the curveball - not any pitch I teach anyway.
As for Marshall's free book and his high-speed back in the 70s, he admitted to me in writing, many years ago, that he could not afford - nor did he intend - to ever check his conclusions with new research. Nothing has changed.
As for the pitcher timed - which had nothing to do with a balk (Kharma making assumptions again) - the pitchers (plural) were on Marshall's own video which he sent me to review perhaps 8 or 10 years ago. I have also had a chance to review Marshall's more recent discussions - when he put in a once (and once only) appearance at the Ultimate Pitching Coaches Boot Camp in Texas (2007 I believe). But I'm fairly certain he never aggressively pronated his pitching arm with 30 lbs of weight strapped to it, which he has had at least one of his students do. No risk there, as long as you know the student has no laxity issues in the rotator area. (Hmmmmm, I wonder if that guy ever got signed as a pitcher.)
As for "biological age 13", not to be confused with chronological age, he has also said growth plates may not fully close until 16. I actually don't have a problem with this - as I recall MM himself was a shortstop through H.S. and did not pitch professionally until around age 20 or so, so waiting did him no harm.
I will leave it to someone else to decode this... "You are entitled to your opinion you are not entitled to your facts."
Last Edit: Aug 24, 2010 15:04:50 GMT -6 by Richard
Don't let Kharma discourage you from participating. Your direct contact with MM is interesting and clarifying. As to Kharma if you question him he does not respond but only gets frightened and nasty. Perhaps ASMI will see who has information and eho has an agenda. My position with MM is that I have not seen any evidence to back up his theories. Until I do , I am not changing.
I can agree with M M on one point though. I believe that kids now are playing way too much baseball and I would support a proposal to not initiate pitching until they hit the full sized diamond. But I believe that subjecting them to Xrays to determne readiness is over the top.
No problem Richard. Kharma and I go back a little ways and actually lives near me. We have never met, but he has actually seen my son pitch in a HS game. We have debated on this board many times and have traded many friendly emails over this past summer. I am truly surprised that he continues to get nasty on a personal level. He generally seems like a pretty good guy until he gets on these boards. It's really not the way to go about influencing people. He'll say it's not the messenger, it's the message that should be listened to, but the messenger is part of the message. And BTW, I'm with you and Daque on the MM thing. I think there are components that ring true, but as a whole, have not proven effective, or even been proven to be "injury free".
Anyway, I'm not worried about Kharma either, just making him a note on the personal level.
. . .I can agree with M M on one point though. I believe that kids now are playing way too much baseball and I would support a proposal to not initiate pitching until they hit the full sized diamond. But I believe that subjecting them to Xrays to determne readiness is over the top.
Reading that, a couple things ran through my mind. Please don’t take what I’m saying as disagreement or trying to start some kind of trouble. Its just some questions.
Like you, I believe very much that kids today play too much baseball. But being fresh from a very animated discussion about something similar, I have to ask, does anyone really know how much baseball is being played? IOW, while the general thought is that there’s too much ball being played, is there any generally accepted definition as to what “too much” is? Is it year round, more than 100 games, or is it some combination or even something different?
Also, is it all kids that play too much ball, or it is some subset of ALL? Is it at all possible that only 20% of ALL the kids are playing too much ball, but we focus on that group so the perception is that it’s a far higher number?
I’m not sure that x-rays are such a bad idea. I don’t know if you remember, but when my boy had his shoulder problems, it turned out that he was born with a type III acromial process, and that contributed to his shoulder issues.
That could have been easily detected from a simple x-ray. I don’t know what we’d have done, but it would sure have been nice to know I was allowing my kid to be put more in harms way than I knew about.
Acromial Morphology Type I: Flat acromion low incidence of impingement Type II: Curved acromion higher incidence of impingement Type III: Beaked acromion very high incidence of impingement May be a genetic anatomical variant May be degenerative in nature (previous Type II that has degenerated)
The same thing goes for x-rays to show the growth plates. I don’t know that everyone would choose to ignore that information, but I always like to make informed decisions as much as possible.
What’s really haunted me about it, is that it could be plainly seen in an x-ray my boy had when he was 7, so it was information readily available that no one thought for one second to look at. Could the same thing be happening for kids who go to the Doc and get an x-ray for a sore arm, not necessarily for growth plate closure?
The reason I’m asking is, it looks to me as though what we’re talking about would only be a change in the standard practice of medicine when a kid went to the Dr with a complaint.
SK: I agree that the dangers of radiation in checking for bone age is a lot less than the cost. Which kids would get zapped, all wanting to pitch or just those pitching on the small diamond?
How many kids are playing too much? Not all kids are impacted even if they are. Maybe your 20% number is valid. Who knows? But eliminating kid pitch until the full sized diamond would sure catch the majority of them.
I do not seriously believe that would come to pass. Too much resistance about big brother, etc. Do you believe that the number of anatomical variants such as your son has would justify zapping all kids pitching? Probably a pretty low yield.
In any event, I just commented on the fact that I don't object to everything that MM says. Just the stuff that remains unproven.
I rail against guys like you that are too lazy to research what they say.
1. You said Dr Marshall does not want kids to pitch until they are 16. That is factually wrong.
2. You said that Dr Marshall waited until after his career was over to change to his present pitching motion. That is factually wrong.
3. What you said about pronating his wrist weights is factually wrong. No one could do those drills without pronating
4. You said that Dr Marshall did not start pitching until he was 20. He pitched in high school.
Dr Marshall puts the high speed film of his students online for any scientist to evaluate. I'd be happy to read your evaluation. After all, he put his evaluation of that Texas clinic in writing.
Like I said you are entitled to your opinion but you are not entitled to make up facts.
I did not say that you said they were balking. I asked you if you thought they were balking. A poster here opined that 50% of MLBers would say his guys were balking.
Patriot does his due diligence. He has opinions but does not invent facts. I enjoy his posts. I root for his son He is hoping against hope that the traditionalists know what they are doing. Let's hope he, unlike so many many parents who criticize what we say how we day it, doesn't slink off into the sunset when the inevitable happens. We need his voice.