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Post by john54 on Jul 4, 2016 10:02:38 GMT -6
My son(16yo LHP) is roughly 5 months out from TJ surgery. He is doing very well in his rehab and has finished the first month of Phase 1 of his throwing program. While he did not strictly abide by the pitch limits, days rest etc, particularly since he also plays in the outfield, he was far from abusive to his arm. Last summer, pro and college scouts both commented on how "clean" his mechanics were and how effortless his delivery was. However, looking at videos from last season, it appeared that he showed the ball to second/CF rather than first. What are everyone's thoughts on this? I am confused. Without mentioning names, there is a school of thought out there that this "premature pronation" is what is causing the Tommy John epidemic. Does ASMI have an opinion on this?
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Post by Glenn Fleisig, Ph.D. on Jul 6, 2016 14:23:02 GMT -6
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Post by thepainguy on Aug 1, 2016 21:07:09 GMT -6
Glenn, Can you explain why ASMI advocates showing the ball to the second baseman, given it's an unnatural action (and virtually always must be taught)? I have grave concerns WRT the wisdom of this cue; IMO its use should be stopped immediately, just in case I'm correct and since it must be taught. Chris O'Leary P.S. To read my latest thoughts on this subject, see my piece on the Tommy John Twist. |
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Post by thepainguy on Sept 8, 2016 13:18:20 GMT -6
I have written extensively about my concerns about the cue to point the ball at second base, which I believe creates a flawed movement pattern that I refer to... - Informally as the Tommy John Twist- Formally as Premature PronationI also discuss this in my comments on ASMI's pitching mechanics model (as seen at PlayBall.org). In short, my concerns about Premature Pronation, the Tommy John Twist, and the cue to Point the Ball at Second Base (at foot plant) are as follows. 1. As I discuss in my piece Pitching MRSA, pointing the ball at second base (at foot plant) is an unnatural movement that pretty much always must be taught. I know it's what pretty much everybody teaches nowadays, but if everybody jumped off a bridge... 2. Pointing the ball at second base was sold to me as something you see in the arm actions of Nolan Ryan and Tom Seaver. That's not the case. 3. Pointing the ball at second base is correlated with elbow problems, including the elbow problems of Jose Fernandez and Matt Harvey's elbow and shoulder problems. As to the mechanism of injury, while I'm not sure whether Pointing the Ball at Second Base is a primary problem (but I have a theory why it could be), as I discuss in my piece on Premature Pronation, I believe it can cause problems by creating a Timing problem. I know that more study is needed into whether pointing the ball at second base is bad but, as with the Mayo Clinic power position, given... 1. The unnatural nature of pointing the ball at second base. 2. Its correlation with elbow injuries. 3. The fact that dominant and durable pitchers do NOT do it. ...I believe prudence dictates that ASMI stop advocating pointing the ball at second base or what I call Premature Pronation. |
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Post by Glenn Fleisig, Ph.D. on Sept 9, 2016 9:36:27 GMT -6
Chris, thank you for all of the work you have contributed.
I have a question for you, to check if we are talking about the same thing.
ASMI's statements have said that at the instant of foot contact, a pitcher should have about 60 degrees of shoulder external rotation. That is, the forearm should be about 2/3 of the way up from horizontal to vertical. In some places, we talk about a left-handed pitcher showing the baseball to the second baseman and a right-handed pitcher showing it to the shortstop (assuming normal fielding positions); this is different than showing the baseball to the second base bag.
Is your issue about the shoulder external rotation (forearm rotated up from horizontal) or about forearm pronation/supination?
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Post by thepainguy on Sept 9, 2016 16:02:18 GMT -6
A few thoughts. 1. IMO it's possible that Premature Pronation could be a primary problem (by deactiviting the FPM muscles at a critical moment). That has some support in the research, but it's just a theory. 2. I'm convinced Premature Pronation creates problems by delaying external rotation. I show clips of this in action (e.g. deGrom and Fernandez) in my pieces on Premature Pronation and the Tommy John Twist. 3. Some of what I'm seeing is the result of pronation earlier on in the process. Well before foot plant. Often as or just after the hands break. This is often taught with the cue to turn the thumbs down. This can create tension in the arm that delays external rotation or lead to internal rotation, both of which tend to create timing problems that... A. Yield quick velocity boosts. B. Significantly increase the risk of injury. My concern with the Lyman (2002) and the Davis (2009) studies is they seem overly focused on the short-term velocity gains and don't understand the long-term injury implications. In other words, just because something yields a quick velocity boost, that doesn't mean it's a good idea. 4. I believe your focus on foot contact explains some of your results (or lack therefore). In my experience, foot contact isn't always correlated with shoulder rotation, and IMO shoulder rotation is what matters (the most) because it's when the arm comes under load. 5. In my work, I tend to focus on FOOT PLANT, with a particular emphasis on the heel, in part because heel plant is clearly an important event in hitting. 6. I'm also seeing more and more shoulder rotation before foot contact, much less foot plant, so I'm also spending a lot of time of late focusing on just the shoulders, and when they start rotating, as a proxy for the start of the load on the arm. 7. 60 degrees of ER might be just fine for a toe lander but not for a heel lander. In my experience, toe landing, side foot landing, flat foot landing, and heel landing may be (IMO are) significantly different. 8. Showing the ball to the second baseman (for a LHP) is better than showing the ball to the second base bag, but what most people teach (and IMO you currently reinforce) is showing the ball to the second base BAG. IMO, that is in (large?) part because then you can use the same cue for lefties and righties. Which is a terrible reason, but it is what it is. 9. What I see in natural arm actions is very little pronation (really a neutral forearm) at foot plant. As a result, lefties show the ball to the 1B bag and righties show the ball to the 3B bag. Any showing the ball toward the second baseman or shortstop is the result of reverse rotation of the shoulder and/or scapular retraction. |
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Post by Glenn Fleisig, Ph.D. on Sept 9, 2016 16:50:17 GMT -6
My concern with the Lyman (2002) and the Davis (2009) studies is they seem overly focused on the short-term velocity gains and don't understand the long-term injury implications. In other words, just because something yields a quick velocity boost, that doesn't mean it's a good idea. Chris, I don't know what you are talking about. Our study Lyman, Fleisig, Andrews, Osinski "Effect of pitch type, pitch count, and pitching mechanics on risk of elbow and shoulder pain in youth baseball pitchers" (2002) has nothing to do with velocity gains and is all about arm pain and injury. In fact, the word "velocity" does not appear in that paper even once! Showing the ball to the second baseman (for a LHP) is better than showing the ball to the second base bag, but what most people teach (and IMO you currently reinforce) is showing the ball to the second base BAG. IMO, that is in (large?) part because then you can use the same cue for lefties and righties. Which is a terrible reason, but it is what it is. How can you say that I reinforce showing the baseball to the second base bag? When has any ASMI publication or presentation ever said that? When have we ever even supported such a statement from someone else? |
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Post by thepainguy on Sept 20, 2016 12:15:06 GMT -6
Chris, I don't know what you are talking about. Our study Lyman, Fleisig, Andrews, Osinski "Effect of pitch type, pitch count, and pitching mechanics on risk of elbow and shoulder pain in youth baseball pitchers" (2002) has nothing to do with velocity gains and is all about arm pain and injury. In fact, the word "velocity" does not appear in that paper even once! My problem with the Lyman paper comes down to this paragraph. In fact, two mechanical flaws, backward lean in the balance position and early hand separation, correlated with a decreased risk of elbow pain. Two other flaws, a long arm swing and arm ahead of the body at the time of ball release, correlated with a decreased risk of shoulder pain.If something DECREASES the risk of elbow and shoulder pain, then how is it a flaw?Decreasing the risk of elbow and shoulder pain sounds like a GOOD thing, not a flaw. I assume it's labeled a flaw because it's a deviation from what are accepted as proper pitching mechanics, but that tells me that there's a problem with the conventional wisdom about proper pitching mechanics if they (needlessly) increase the risk of elbow and shoulder pain and that's not seen as a problem. It could also be that they are labeled a flaw if they reduce velocity, which seems more likely than the reason above, but that's not mentioned. How can you say that I reinforce showing the baseball to the second base bag? When has any ASMI publication or presentation ever said that? When have we ever even supported such a statement from someone else? Where I live, this sentence... The throwing hand fingers should be on top of the ball, with the arm working through a down, back and up progression so that the ball is ultimately pointed towards second base....is pretty much universally interpreted as pointing towards the second base BAG. That's reinforced by this picture...  Maybe that isn't the intent, but I believe it's the most common interpretation of that cue. You can see it in use during this clinic by Don Cooper of the White Sox. He first uses the term "center field," which is what I was taught... - "Show the ball the the center fielder." ...but second base is the most common usage, now. - "Point the ball at second base." He then talks about "Where second BASE would be." Cooper even speaks against swinging the arm back toward the second baseman's position. In my experience, this is the most common way of interpreting the cue to point the ball towards second base. www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhMcE6Vj4KII lay out my sense of the history of this cue in this piece... www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Epidemic/PitchingMRSA.html...and it's entirely consistent with what you see in the Cooper arm action clip. Not trying to be a jerk, but I'm on the ground floor -- on the fields and in the cages listening to what coaches and instructors are saying -- and I am very familiar with how things are being interpreted. And IMO it's a HUGE problem. |
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Post by thepainguy on Oct 3, 2016 13:28:26 GMT -6
How can you say that I reinforce showing the baseball to the second base bag? When has any ASMI publication or presentation ever said that? When have we ever even supported such a statement from someone else? A couple of follow-up points, given the EXTREME importance of the topic and the fact that we are in the off-season and can kill this cue before another baseball season starts up. 1. I did a quick, totally unscientific poll and 11/11 people so far interpret "so that the ball is ultimately pointed towards second base" as meaning toward the second base BAG. I assume that wasn't the intention, but in my experience and others' this is how this cue is being interpreted in the field, and that's what matters. I know it's what everybody teaches, but if everybody jumped off a bridge... 2. Premature Pronation is most problematic when held at foot plant and/or when the shoulders start rotating, because that is when the arm comes under load.    3.A. I believe Premature Pronation is at least a problem because it can create tension in the pitching arm and limit external rotation at the commencement of the start of shoulder rotation. Per Davis (2009) that is BY DESIGN, "(W)hen the forearm is pronated, the humerus remains internally rotated." I can only assume they saw prolonged internal rotation as a good thing because it led to short term velocity boosts and not simply because that was the unquestioned theory (and what everybody teaches). 3.B. I think it's conceivable that Premature Pronation can also cause problems by inhibiting the contraction of the muscles of the forearm that help to carry some of the load that is otherwise focused on the UCL. |
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Post by Glenn Fleisig, Ph.D. on Oct 4, 2016 9:13:29 GMT -6
How can you say that I reinforce showing the baseball to the second base bag? When has any ASMI publication or presentation ever said that? When have we ever even supported such a statement from someone else? Where I live, this sentence... The throwing hand fingers should be on top of the ball, with the arm working through a down, back and up progression so that the ball is ultimately pointed towards second base....is pretty much universally interpreted as pointing towards the second base BAG. Chris, Where did this quote come from? Can you provide for me the link? |
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Post by thepainguy on Oct 4, 2016 13:15:19 GMT -6
Where I live, this sentence... The throwing hand fingers should be on top of the ball, with the arm working through a down, back and up progression so that the ball is ultimately pointed towards second base....is pretty much universally interpreted as pointing towards the second base BAG. Chris, Where did this quote come from? Can you provide for me the link? Playball.org ww2.usabaseball.com/playball/coaches/resources/pitching/basics-delivery/ |
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Post by Glenn Fleisig, Ph.D. on Oct 5, 2016 12:20:18 GMT -6
Thanks, Chris. I am going to pass this along to the people who wrote that page for USA Baseball.
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Post by thepainguy on Oct 5, 2016 14:15:08 GMT -6
Thanks, Chris. I am going to pass this along to the people who wrote that page for USA Baseball. Great news! |
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Post by thepainguy on Oct 19, 2016 15:05:20 GMT -6
FYI, USA Baseball has updated the page in question at Playball.org. It now says...
"The throwing hand fingers should be on top of the ball, with the arm working through a down, back and up progression so that the ball is ultimately pointed toward the typical shortstop position for a right-handed pitcher, and the typical second baseman position for a left-handed pitcher."
ww2.usabaseball.com/playball/coaches/resources/pitching/basics-delivery/
This is progress!
Thanks Glenn, for the rapid response.
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Post by Glenn Fleisig, Ph.D. on Oct 20, 2016 14:28:14 GMT -6
Thanks, Chris, for pointing this out.
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